DPA Mandolin Mic Opinions

[Trent Crawford]

Hey Guys,

I`m currently needing to make my mandolin usable at louder gigs...

I don`t like the idea of a piezio style pickup...

So have found myself looking at the DPA http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/pro...118&item=24346

Anybody had any experience with these, opinions?

Open to other microphone suggestions also.

Cheers Guys & Gals!
Trent.

[foldedpath]

I started using a DPA 4099 mic on my mandolin for gigs a few years ago, shortly after they first came out. I had been using the Audio Technic ATM350 before that -- a good mic, but not in the class of the 4099. I like the 4099 system so much, that I got another one for my Octave mandolin and Dobro, and it's also used by the guitar player in our duo, and also for the occasional sit-in fiddler. I sometimes use it with a wireless system too, for sound checks out in the room. Most of these mini mic systems will work with wireless systems if you get the right adapter.

The DPA 4099 is a natural-sounding mic with good feedback rejection (although not quite as good as a pickup in that respect), and a great mounting system. The downside is the cost. It's considerably more expensive than the next tier down in mini condenser mics like Audio Technica Pro 35 and ATM350, K&K Silver Bullet, etc., but it's worth the money if your budget can support it. There are some photos on this older Cafe thread that show how I have it mounted on my mandolin and OM. Search here with a DPA 4099 keyword for other threads that discuss this and other mic options.

Note: while the feedback rejection is good, especially if you can get the capsule close to your soundhole, it won't be as good as a pickup if you play on a very loud stage. For example, in a band with drums and electric guitar, or an "acoustic" band where the stage volume is just out of control. That's where a pickup or a dedicated acoustic/electric mandolin would be a better choice.

[Bauzl]

I totally agree with foldedpath.
We use dpa 4099 on mando, fiddle and banjo and get a very natural sound with good feedback rejection. Drum set and wedges are no problem (but I personally prefer Cajon and no stage monitors).
It also prooved to be very tough even tough it looks quite fragile. Service by DPA is at the same high level as the price ;-)

cheers
bauzl

[Chris Reber]

I've never gotten my hands on one of these in person, but I was lucky enough to chat with Gabe Witcher once about his and the rest of Punch Brothers live set up. He said they tried the DPA, but thought it was a little too bright and brittle sounding. I've used a few other DPA microphones (4006, 4011) for recording and have had similar experiences- they sound great, don't get me wrong, but they can get a little harsh, depending on the instrument/player. Other times, they sound gorgeous; hard to say without experimenting. You might be able to convince your dealer to let you try it out before you commit.


Gabe did say, however, that he, Thile, and Noam Pikelny are in fact using the Audio Technica ATM350, so it might be worth giving one of these a shot, especially if budget is a concern.

[almeriastrings]

I cannot think of any technical reason why they would be "brittle" or "harsh". They have excellent SPL handling, and a very stable frequency response. The actual transducer quality in them is about as good as it gets. Of course, as with any microphone or pickup, installation and positioning is critical, as is the load you are running them into. If you get that right, in my experience, they sound very, very good indeed. I've used them on super-critical jobs, such as classical live broadcasts. Never a single complaint - also used them in a BG context, same results.

That said, I personally tend to prefer a non-instrument mounted mic, as I find it easier to control dynamics (and tone) with those, especially during breaks. This will depend on the style you play, and other band instruments, though.

In a REALLY loud situation, you can pretty much max-out any mic system of course, mounted or not. At that point a good pickup is probably your only option. For making them sound a lot better, the Fishman Aura Spectrum DI is well worth experimenting with. It really does work and offers a lot of tonal possibilities. Not cheap - but worth it if you need to use a transducer (non magnetic) pickup.

[Billy Packard]

I have had my DPA 4099 on the job for 6 or 7 times. The sound, when mounted correctly, is amazingly accurate. I have two issues. I bought this for a one-of-a-kind Gibson F4 Hybrid that Dave Harvey built in 2009. Being an oval hole, the sound is best captured from the front point with the mike over the sound-hole. Problem is finger noise from the fingerboard. At the gig I am not aware of it but when I listen back to the recorded music it is definitely there. It is a thumping, almost kick-drum like sound from hammer-on's and such. I can e.q. most of it out but the recorded music is just not usable for anything serious.

The other thing is the wind screen. My regular weekend lunch gig is in a place where the wind is dependable and the screen that came with the mike is just not up to the job. I don't know if they make a more stout version of the screen but I would be willing to give it a try. Otherwise the sound is just so authentic, it sounds just like the mando does at home in my studio.

Gibson F4 Hybrid
Gilchrist A3
Weber F5 Fern
Gibson 1923 A2
Various fine guitars

[Mark Seale]

I use the 4099 on my fiddle both indoors and out. The response is fantastic. Accurate and my favorite word for mics/amping... transparent. It sounds like my instrument out front, not electronic. I recently added an Acoustic Image Corus amp to the fold and I couldn't be more happy with the reproduction of my sound. It sounds like my instrument and me, just louder. Playing fiddle, my only concern is talking over the mic or breathing hard, it does pick that up... and bad jokes. The pairing of the DPA with the AI amp is exactly what I've been looking for for years.

[almeriastrings]

The other thing is the wind screen. My regular weekend lunch gig is in a place where the wind is dependable and the screen that came with the mike is just not up to the job. I don't know if they make a more stout version of the screen but I would be willing to give it a try.

I believe RYCOTE do them for these.... they do look a bit like a dead mouse (or rat, for larger mics!) but work extremely well.

http://www.rycote.com/applications/lavalier/

[foldedpath]

I believe RYCOTE do them for these.... they do look a bit like a dead mouse (or rat, for larger mics!) but work extremely well.http://www.rycote.com/applications/lavalier/

The 4099 has its own integral foam windscreen that can't be removed (it's part of the mount), so it's larger than the standard lavalier capsules these things are designed for. I'm not sure it would fit, although maybe one of those fuzzy Windjammers could be cut along the side for more room? They're only about $25 USD, so it could be worth trying.

Then add a pair of toy eyes, so it looks even more like a small animal perched on your instrument.

[almeriastrings]

Rycote will supply custom sizes, if asked. Including ones that go on top of existing foam wind-shields.

The windjammers (furry type) have quite a bit of leeway anyhow as most of them just use a Velcro closing system.

The eyes have it....

[Billy Packard]

Rycote? I will check it out & thanks for the tip. I will update as things go. I also often use the Acoustic Image Chorus + and it is a fantastic amp. Small, light-weight, "transparent" is a great way of describing it! The DPA and AI are a great combo for smaller venue's. At my restaurant gig, (http://jardinesrestaurant.com/) when we are outside playing in the garden I use a Mackie 808S powered mixer and 4 speakers pointed various directions for saturation. It works very well.

The F4 Hybrid & getting it properly mic'ed is still a work in progress. Previously I had K&K mando pickup put in it (installed by Roger Siminoff), that I don't like. K&K sounds really fine on two guitars I own, but the sound on the mando is very 'quacky'. Maybe I will put a little more time in on experimenting with EQing. Still, the DPA's sound is in a class by itself.

Billy Packard
billypackardmandolin.com

Gibson F4 Hybrid
Gilchrist A3
Weber F5 Fern
Gibson 1923 A2
Various fine guitars

[Trent Crawford]

So i bit the bullett and purchased the DPA... basically i`ve found that it works well in a very controlled "professional" environment, which i only do here and there. For my regular jam nights / pub gigs it doesn`t cut it. Can`t get enough volume without feedback / outside noise interfering.

Back to the drawing board for me. I`m thinking i`ll try K&K style next, perhaps combined with a 57...

Ahhhhhh... the joys ey!!! : /

: )

[mandroid]

Mics? you are in Australia, I have a Rode 1/2" small diaphragm http://www.rodemic.com/
check those out .. NT5, (i got a pair) .. or the newer NT55,


looks like they also took up making a dynamic mic, the M1 in the last years.

[almeriastrings]

If you are having FB issues with the DPA, you'll also get them with a Rode M3. That is a very decent mic (I have a pair I use with our Tascam portable recorder), but it is not especially FB resistant in live situations. If you are playing at high volumes, and using floor monitors, it will severely test any mic. I would look at changes to your monitoring system, or simply use a pickup....

[Don Julin]

Trent I use a DPA also and you are right, for a loud room it picks up too much clutter. If you are playing loud beer joints and want an acoustic type of sound, you may want to look at the Godin A8 or some other type of mandolin built for amplification. I have been using an A8 for situations like this for over 10 years and it works quite well and will NOT feedback. Keep the DPA for gigs were the audience is listening.

[Trent Crawford]

I`m thinking it is going to have to be a pickup for the loud "beer joints"... I was hoping to keep that warmness from the mic, but need the volume with out the clutter / noise / feedback.

Now that search begins! The K&K seems to get all the right reviews.

Just been sussing out the Shertler... that seems to do what i want... mmmmmm...

A guitar one is available on the cheap... wonder what the difference is between the G and M versions of the Dyn Shertlers... got me some research to do! : )

[foldedpath]

I`m thinking it is going to have to be a pickup for the loud "beer joints"... I was hoping to keep that warmness from the mic, but need the volume with out the clutter / noise / feedback.

Before you give up on the DPA clip-on mic, there are a couple of things you might consider trying:

1) Make sure you have the mic placed for maximum gain before feedback. If your mandolin is the F-hole type, you'll probably get the most gain if you adjust the gooseneck so the tip of the mic is aimed at the bottom of the treble-side F-hole, very close to the hole. Not inside the hole, but almost touching the edges of the circular cutout at the bottom of the F-hole. During the gig, make sure you're not accidentally knocking the mic out of position. It has to be close to the mandolin to get the loudest signal, and a loud signal is what you want to avoid feedback.

I'll usually have the mic a bit further back than that in a quiet room, but if it's noisy and I need max gain, that's where the mic goes. You mentioned "outside noise interfering," which makes me suspect that the mic just may not be close enough to your mandolin, or aimed at the right spot for maximum volume.

2) Another thing you might try is a feedback "eliminator" that will automatically detect feedback and drop very narrow EQ filters over the offending frequencies. My favorite device of this type is the Sabine FBX series. I use the older version of the 2410 with dual channels (one for the main FOH speaker output and one for the monitors), but you can get a single channel box if you only need it on your mandolin. Since the DPA 4099 needs a preamp and phantom power, you'd have to use the FBX on an insert on the PA mixer channel, or an FX loop if you're using an acoustic amp.

These devices are best used as backup, for catching a sudden feedback spike that couldn't be rung out during sound check. That's how I use it most of the time. But they will also give you a few decibels of gain over feedback with the initial filter setup, if you really need it on a loud stage. When we run our own PA, I always have that Sabine FBX in the rack... wouldn't gig without it. It can be a big help in avoiding embarrassing feedback spikes when you have to mix your own sound from the stage.

Just don't expect a feedback eliminator to perform miracles if you're running really loud stage volumes. A pickup or a solid/semi-solid body electric mandolin would be a better choice for those situations.

P.S. this post is already getting long, but if the feedback you're getting is 100% from your stage monitors and not from the FOH speakers, another solution is in-ear monitors, and ditch the wedges. That has its own pros and cons, though. The bands I play in don't use IEM's for various reasons -- cost, hassle of wireless setups, and just the fact that not everyone is comfortable using them. But it can be a great solution for some folks, and lets you stay with microphones and avoid pickups.

[mandroid]

wonder what the difference is between the G and M versions of the Dyn Schertlers...
got me some research to do!

the wire length... the G is the shorter.

[I put the mic cable /pickup plug combo in a pocket, myself]

[Jim Nollman]

I use a Schertler with either of my two acoustic mandos (F5 and oval hole) when playing traditional music onstage or at dances. I'm in a band with piano, guitar and fiddle.

But I use a Godin A8 exclusively for louder gigs without the band. It is, by far, the best solution for cutting through audience noise, as well as playing with any electric band. It has a very fast neck, and great tone, which is easy to control via the onboard EQ. I play mine through a Fishman Loudbox. I especially find it to be the best choice when playing blues in a band with a miked harmonica, which masks so much acoustic mandolin tone.

[Trent Crawford]

Before you give up on the DPA clip-on mic

I will try this. I have a gig tonight and will have a fiddle with positioning. I`m using it on a A style mando. I originally tried it so the mic was pointing towards the treble side F hole, but i found myself bumping it and the mount completely off the mando. I then had it so the mic was coming up from the bottom side over the 12th fret area. That sounded great but couldn`t get the head room.

You mentioned the DPA has to have a pre amp... I`m running it straight into a Yorkville powered desk with phantom power of course. Are you suggesting an external pre amp would help my cause also? I was under the assumption this i did not "need".

The sabine sounds great. Will look into that. And i must add the whole running the P.A is new to me also... so i`m sure theres tricks there `ill be learning over the next 12 months that will help with these dramas too.

Cheers for the advice!

T.

: )

[Trent Crawford]

the wire length... the G is the shorter.

[I put the mic cable /pickup plug combo in a pocket, myself]

Cool. I ordered the G version... looking forward to trying it out. The pocket setup sounds good to me.

T.

[Trent Crawford]

I used the Shertler last night... It did have a nice dark throaty tone. I found i had to dial in a bit of highs and dial out a chunk of lows to get in the ballpark. But i still had the feedback issues. Keen to spend some time messing around with it next week.

Maybe i`m looking for something that doesn`t exsist! : /

Will defiantely get back to the DPA, try getting the mic closer / more gain into it and look at the Sabine FXB Solo. I`m thinking that will get me to where i want to be, but just get me there, i don`t think i`ll have any head room to play with.

Let ya`s know how i go.

Have a great weekend fella`s!!!

T. : )

[almeriastrings]

I am curious as to what kind of stage levels you are trying to work with here? Monitors?

The Sabines are good units, and will automatically "notch out" particularly troublesome frequencies, but there are still limits to what can be achieved. Once you go beyond the limit, any mic, or any bridge or soundboard transducer, will generate feedback. It is the physics of the thing. At very high levels, you really have to go back to square one. The fundamental design of the instrument, hence "semi-acoustic" type guitars/mandos, and beyond that... solid body electrics and magnetic pickups. To eliminate (or drastically reduce) feedback, you have to break the cycle one way or another. Either by reducing the sensitivity at the pickup transducer end of things, or by cutting stage volume (IEM's as suggested).

The great benefit of the DPA is its fidelity. It is primarily designed to produce a very high quality result from fine instruments. For extreme volume levels, a magnetic pickup on a very dead sounding (acoustically) instrument is actually preferable...

I'd also point out that at truly ear-splitting levels, neither yourself or the audience will notice much in the way of "pure fidelity" either....

[Trent Crawford]

I am curious as to what kind of stage levels you are trying to work with here? Monitors?

I went back to the DPA with it right up close on the F Hole and had far greater success this time. Was very happy with the tone, yet still had the occasional feedback spike if i moved around between songs, it was controllable and something i`de work out after a few more shows in that realm.

The volume is generally a standard pub / beer garden duo / trio playing ( dare i say ) "Background Music"... It`s not blaring loud but it certainly isn`t quite either. The drama is more the clutter / noise that goes on around us that the DPA will pick up and spit back out. But as i said, with the Mic almost inside the F Hole like was suggested to me by a forumite, that worked wonders.

I`m thinking if the Sabine doesn`t kill the tone i`ll be where i want to be with the DPA.

It does seem like a K&K style bug would be far easier to handle with the volume / feedback issues, yet i`ll keep charging down the DPA path and try my best to get it to do what i`m after.

I do get to play the mando with a full band at times, and for that i know i`ll need a K&K style pickup, which i will delve into soon enough.

i`ve always loved the traditional Bluegrass playing around one microphone approach... after all this, i`m loving that idea more than EVER! ha ha LOL

: )

T.

[foldedpath]

I went back to the DPA with it right up close on the F Hole and had far greater success this time. Was very happy with the tone, yet still had the occasional feedback spike if i moved around between songs, it was controllable and something i`de work out after a few more shows in that realm.

Hey Trent, it's great to hear that placement worked! I had a feeling the mic placement wasn't in the sweet spot.

I`m thinking if the Sabine doesn`t kill the tone i`ll be where i want to be with the DPA.

If you do try the Sabine FBX, be advised that the standard setup for "fixed" vs. "floating" feedback filters is aggressive in the number of filters it wants to engage. You can go into the setup options and set the unit to just drop a few filters, and leave the rest floating for emergencies. I think I have my Sabine FBX2400 set for just 4 fixed initial filters, and the rest "floating" as backups.

Keep experimenting with your monitor placement before you get one of these "feedback eliminators" though, because you might not need it at all.

It does seem like a K&K style bug would be far easier to handle with the volume / feedback issues, yet i`ll keep charging down the DPA path and try my best to get it to do what i`m after.

That's the path I've chosen too... I just like the sound of a mic, even a close mic like this, so much better than a pickup if I can get away with it.

I do get to play the mando with a full band at times, and for that i know i`ll need a K&K style pickup, which i will delve into soon enough.

It depends on the band, and on the stage levels you're running, and whether you're using floor monitors or IEM's. So many variables. There are ways to use a clip-on mini condenser mic with a traditional Folk/Bluegrass/Celtic band (check out what Chris Thile and Punch Brothers are doing these days), but if the stage volume reaches a certain level, then yeah... a pickup or an acoustic-electric mandolin less prone to feedback is the best choice.

i`ve always loved the traditional Bluegrass playing around one microphone approach... after all this, i`m loving that idea more than EVER! ha ha LOL

It's simpler for the band and the sound reinforcement crew, but harder on the individual performers.

When it works perfectly, with a band that has perfected the "dance" around one microphone, it can sound great. But frankly... for every band I've heard that can pull this off, I've heard a dozen bands where instruments just fade out in the overall mix when they're not taking a solo, to the detriment of the overall band sound. Your band really has to nail that dance, and not mind playing literally in each other's faces (and avoid banging instruments), to make it work.