Right hand Technique: "The Key Turn"

[jackmalonis]

This might be hard to put into text but hopefully this'll make sense...

So I've heard a lot of mixed responses to a certain picking technique/motion where during some of the player's upstrokes (especially on jumps from a down stroke on the E string to an upstroke on the D or G) they angulate their wrist backwards (as if turning a key) and sort of "scoop" the upstroke before bringing their wrist back to a level position.

I've heard many people advise against this, but it seems like on some of this big jumps on alternate picking runs, it's almost impossible NOT to angle your wrist that way, if only to avoid the strings in between the "jump."

What do you guys think?

[JeffD]

Hard to visualize.

I know my wrist is never stiff at any point in my playing. When I tried to do a "key turn" just now, I noticed my wrist lock up to stay in position with my upper arm.

So if thats what you mean, I don't think its a good idea. I go with as much relaxed as possible. The stiffest part of my right hand would be thumb and finger holding the pick. Everything else is pretty floppy.

[Fred Keller]

I understand the "key turn" to be the motion of the wrist where, if you hold your hand straight out from your body and engage the motion, it looks like you're turning a key in a lock.

The reason why this is not recommended for picking is twofold. First, it takes the pick farther than necessary away from the strings. If you pick THROUGH the string (straight down or up), you don't have to move the pick as far to prepare for the next stroke as you do with the "key turn" motion which leaves the pick farther up in the air.

Secondly, that keyturn motion uses more muscle and tendon energy than, say, the "loose fist" pick stroke. The more you get those guys work, the less relaxed you are and the more prone to nasty things like tendonitis you become.

Like Jeff, I don't think it's a good idea. It's not "verboten" or anything, just not the best method for most people.

[Bertram Henze]

It came naturally to me. I don't move the pick like a key, that is, but my wrist is rotating along.
There is even a continuous path from the "move like a hammer" way to mine: hammer technique starts with the wrist near the strings, the hand rotating around an axis perpendicular with the forearm and the mandolin top; now slowly move your wrist away from the top, still picking, and note that your wrist starts rotating around an axis parallel with the forearm, with much more room to move.

[jackmalonis]

Ok cool!

So on big jumps from down stroke to upstroke, how do you avoid sounding the strings in between.

I feel like you either have to "micro-extend" your wrist upwards right after plucking, or angle your wrist so that the pick is almost parallel to the strings as you're moving your wrist back for the upstroke.

[jackmalonis]

When I say keystroke motion...

Put you index finger and thumb together and hold your hand up to your face as if you're looking through the O in an "OK" hand symbol.
Now rotate your wrist so that you're looking at your knuckles...

So it's that kind of "scooping" motion that I'm wondering about.

[Bill Baldridge]

I probably got it wrong, but it looks to me that Mike Marshall is teaching, if the "the key turn", something much like it on his instruction video.

[August Watters]

I probably got it wrong, but it looks to me that Mike Marshall is teaching, if the "the key turn", something much like it on his instruction video.

That wouldn't surprise me. There's a lot of tradition behind this technique, although it's fallen perhaps out of favor. Check out any of Dave Apollon's videos: he uses more forearm rotation (usually with arched wrist) when he needs to cover wider distances (such as for chording). You'll see this technique amongst gypsy jazz players, among others.

[jackmalonis]

That wouldn't surprise me. There's a lot of tradition behind this technique, although it's fallen perhaps out of favor. Check out any of Dave Apollon's videos: he uses more forearm rotation (usually with arched wrist) when he needs to cover wider distances (such as for chording). You'll see this technique amongst gypsy jazz players, among others.

Yeah, I think the forearm rotation is exactly what I'm talking about, now that I think about it that would have been a better way to put it... haha

But yeah, I knew I had seen people do it, but at the same time I've heard plenty advise against it.

In my own experimenting with it thus far I've found that I can play "cleaner" with the forearm rotation, but I lose A LOT of speed. But I was playing around with that rotation because my elbow started hurting after playing some right-hand-tasking runs and I was worried that I wasn't using enough wrist.

I think I've found that when I get to the intense picking runs I concentrate so hard on keeping my wrist loose that I forget about the rest of my arm and it tenses up around the elbow.

Common problem?

[August Watters]

But yeah, I knew I had seen people do it, but at the same time I've heard plenty advise against it.

Seems as if an orthodoxy has been developing on this topic that says forearm rotation is wrong. In Chris Thile's "Essential Techniques," he equates forearm rotation with inconsistent pick angle. But without taking a stand on whether and how much it should be used, I can point out that this technique lives in several different traditions, and has been part of virtuoso technique. I learned it from a great player in southern Indiana (where I grew up close to Bean Blossom) and later observed it in the playing of Rudy Cippola and other classical players. There's been a trend away from it also in the classical world; Ugo Orlandi (who's pretty much defined what's taught in Italian conservatories) doesn't teach this way. I had an interesting conversation on this topic last week with my friend Emanuele Cappollotto (one of the great younger Italian classical virtuosos), who traces the "flatten the wrist and use less forearm" trend to the playing of Giuseppe Anedda.

In my own experimenting with it thus far I've found that I can play "cleaner" with the forearm rotation, but I lose A LOT of speed. But I was playing around with that rotation because my elbow started hurting after playing some right-hand-tasking runs and I was worried that I wasn't using enough wrist.

Hand pain should tell you something's wrong. Careful with that! It's good that you're trying to identify how other people say it's done, but remember we're all constructed a little differently and ultimately have to self-diagnose our own solutions. Hopefully with plenty of awareness of how other people have solved similar problems!

Talking about technique on an internet forum is inherently frustrating and full of miscommunication (what does "wrist" mean?). Any way you go, there are tradeoffs.

[Bill Baldridge]

I went back to check my Mike Marshall video and he describes it as, "a slight figure eight motion."

[Emanuele Cappellotto]

It is interesting to see that the Giuseppe Anedda tecnique was not so different to the German one at the time of Takashi Ochi and Siegfried Behrend. See the video :




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpoxTm1FJVo


Emanuele Cappellotto
www.pizzicando.it

[jackmalonis]

Very interesting!

I'm going to have to do plenty of experimenting with this.

it's looking like there are so many different schools of thought to consider.

[JRcohan]

I'm going to have to do plenty of experimenting with this. .

I think you are on the right track. Experimenting with open ears, or better yet some simple recording device you can listen back to to hear your tone. If you certain technique sounds better without causing added tension in your writst/arm go with it.

Also, I love that Mr.Watters mentioned Dave Apollon, one of the greatest of all time in my opinion. I checked out some of the few videos they have of him playing live. What I call the gypsy right hand style is an impressive sight to see. Good luck, and keep pickin.

Jake
http://www.jakecohan.com