Postwar Gibson FON help: 1369-11

**mrmando** · Jul-26-2012, 5:10pm

I'm being asked about an EM150 with a FON of 1369-11. I gather this means it was made between 1947 and 1952. Is there a way of narrowing it down further from the FON alone? I haven't seen photos yet, so I don't know whether, for example, it has a post-1948 headstock logo.

**f5loar** · Jul-26-2012, 8:18pm

Looks like a 1948 FON to me if it is post war headstock and logo. Should have open back Klusons if original and a clam shell TP.

**mrmando** · Jul-26-2012, 9:24pm

Thanks Tom! If the guy sends me photos I'll know what to look for.

**Joe Spann** · Jul-27-2012, 10:07am

Originally Posted by mrmando

I'm being asked about an EM150 with a FON of 1369-11. I gather this means it was made between 1947 and 1952. Is there a way of narrowing it down further from the FON alone?

Early post-war Gibson FONS are a tricky subject, but I'm thinking that batch #1369 was reached in the summer of 1949.

Here's why......

The very first RB-150 Gibson banjo was shipped on 9 February 1949 with a batch #922. Another RB-150 with batch #1913 with a 1949 bill of sale has been observed. Therefore, because batch #1369 falls in between those two numbers, I'm thinking 1949 is the year of production for your EM-150

Joe

**mrmando** · Jul-27-2012, 11:36am

Well, it ain't mine yet ... but thanks for the info! If I get photos I'll post 'em here.

I'm told the number is on the back of the headstock.

**mrmando** · Jul-29-2012, 1:07am

Well, it doesn't have the post-1948 logo, nor does it have a cloud tailpiece. Thoughts?

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**f5loar** · Jul-29-2012, 5:56pm

This is one reason one should post photos first before the experts weight in on speculations of only having a serial or FON number. It's a 1940 EM150. Or at least that's what I see in it. Everything looks right for a 40's EM150 except the bridge which looks to be a replacement with a Kay style bridge. It should have a FON stamped onto the back as viewed through the lower F hole. If that number matches the number on the back of headstock then bingo it's a 1940. If not we could be looking at a factory redo of a prewar A50 to a postwar EM150. The case is not an original Gibson case.

**mrmando** · Jul-29-2012, 6:25pm

Well, I posted photos as soon as I got them ...

This one doesn't quite add up. It's post-'41 (pickup) but pre-'48 (script logo), yet the tailpiece isn't right for the '40s and I've never seen another EM150 with that pickguard. Original EM150 pickguards are almost invariably black, are they not? I'm actually thinking that the idea of it being a redone A50 makes the most sense.

I'll ask if the same lot number appears inside.

I know that at one point it was standard practice for Gibson to stamp the serial number into the headstock of an instrument that came into the factory for repair (I have a friend with a refinished A2Z that received this treatment). Might that have happened to this instrument if it was redone as an EM150 in 1949?

**f5loar** · Jul-29-2012, 8:00pm

The TP would be right for a prewar A50 model. Not sure on the pickup but since it's not the typical prewar soap bar Christain PU it could be just an early P90. The PG is the right material for some prewar PG. The black ones with mulit ply are post war. The prewar EM150's were still in the development stages and changes were likely made to each year made. Not many examples to go by for prewar EM150s.

**mrmando** · Jul-29-2012, 9:47pm

Well, here's a '41 with a transitional P-90ish pickup. Screw poles and a metal cover instead of a black one. Gruhn's book says this kind of pickup was used throughout the '40s. Of course, this '41 already has a cloud tailpiece, but who knows if it's original?

Agree that 1369-11 looks like it has a prewar PG, but doesn't it have postwar control knobs?

I hear from the owner that the 1369 is stamped inside, but not the 11! What do you suppose that means? 1369 by itself could be a '30s FON and support the notion of a prewar A50 converted to an EM150 later.

1369 is listed as a 1934 FON in Joe's book, with an A-1 exemplar. It could also be from '35 or '37.

If this is a conversion job, then it couldn't be from 1940, since A50s made in 1940 have the wide body and longer scale.

Actually, most A50s had a headstock decoration: fleur-de-lis in the '30s, and later on a small diamond. With its logo-only headstock, perhaps this was originally a prewar A-1, like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1937...item2a20ebb53f

**mot76** · Jul-30-2012, 4:14pm

Here's some pix of the bridge I just replaced and the tailpiece cover. I don't see that cover going over the tailpiece I have on there now. But, it was in the case. The other 2 pix of of the serial number inside the body. If you look close, you can see the 11, in red, to the right. (probably have to zoom in)I missed that before as it's hard to see in there. Finally, a pic of the headstock.

**f5loar** · Jul-30-2012, 4:30pm

That is a correct Gibson bridge for the 50's but not 40's. They used smaller wheels in the 30's and 40's. The TP cover could be original but it's not for the TP on there now. Again could be it was changed to the clamshell in the 50's and someone changed it back to the 40's style. The 11 in red would be correct for a mid 30's FON so there is no doubt the mandolin started out in the mid30's as an A1 and then upgraded to an electric in the 50's. The bridge you put on is backwards on the top. Can't tell about the bottom but it should fit evenly parallel to the body with the top turned around from what you have it now.

**mrmando** · Jul-30-2012, 4:51pm

Since Joe has already listed a 1934 A1 with a FON of 1369, we can conclude that 1934 is the most likely year of original manufacture for this instrument. 1369 would show up in the 1937 FON series, but 1366–68 and 1370 are all Kalamazoo-branded instruments, so it's likely that 1369 would be as well.

I suppose having a good '50s bridge contributes to the value, though not as much as the original bridge would. $800 seems fair ... the modifications haven't added much value but they haven't taken value away, either. A 1934 A1 with replacement bridge and non-original case, not converted to electric, would probably fetch about the same amount.

**f5loar** · Jul-30-2012, 9:51pm

It sure looks like this one on ebay minus the 50's pickup and knobs:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1937...item2a20ebb53f
And it also looks like a 1936 A-1 at Gruhns http://www.gruhn.com/ item no: MF8103
A 1934 A-1 would be exactly the same. Since Spann does list an A-1 for 1934 under that FON that is on the mandolin in 2 places it has to be a 1934 A-1 that was sent back to the factory in the 50's for electric pickup update. Value would be that of a mid 30's A-1 around $750 to $1200 with dealers asking a bit more. Gruhn is listing his '36 at $1750.

**mot76** · Aug-01-2012, 2:34pm

Originally Posted by f5loar

That is a correct Gibson bridge for the 50's but not 40's. They used smaller wheels in the 30's and 40's. The TP cover could be original but it's not for the TP on there now. Again could be it was changed to the clamshell in the 50's and someone changed it back to the 40's style. The 11 in red would be correct for a mid 30's FON so there is no doubt the mandolin started out in the mid30's as an A1 and then upgraded to an electric in the 50's. The bridge you put on is backwards on the top. Can't tell about the bottom but it should fit evenly parallel to the body with the top turned around from what you have it now.

Thanks for that keen eye, Tom. I fixed the bridge. Mario