Bluegrass without guitar?

**Fretbear** · Jul-31-2012, 9:18am

The guitar man is the bluegrass band's "backbone."

**Hobo** · Jul-31-2012, 4:14pm

From a person who's been listening to Bluegrass since the 1960s (discovered WSM, WWVA and WCKY on the radio one day as a teenager), I've become really bored with the banjo. I play some banjo myself (clawhammer/frailing), but the monotonous, endless rolls and cliche banjo breaks of a typical Scruggs imitator are hard to listen to anymore. I much prefer a banjo-less setting.

**ralph johansson** · Aug-01-2012, 6:28am

Originally Posted by Fretbear

I am on a serious Jimmy Martin kick right now, learning Paul Williams and Vernon Derrick mandolin solos. The clothes alone could put most people off the Sunny Mountain Boys videos on YouTube, etc., but it must be said that Jimmy Martin's contributions on guitar and vocals to bluegrass music cannot be overstated.
Tony Rice's favorite rhythm guitar player had an intensity and mastery in his vocals that was unsurpassed.
If you listen really close, it is almost impossible to hear his guitar unless it is playing a run, and therein lies the sad fate of the best of the bluegrass guitar players; if they do it right, they almost disappear. It is ironic and telling that "the" master rhythm guitar player chose to (uniquely) have that snare drum included in his (very much) bluegrass band.

I assure you, the beat was there, felt rather than heard, I suppose All the snare drum did was obscure the sound of the guitar, Martin certainly didn't need it.

**fredfrank** · Aug-01-2012, 7:08am

Pete Wernick recorded a whole album without guitar. I think it was called: "Dr. Banjo Steps Out". He said it was one of his favorite ways to play, although you will rarely see him without one.

**sarai** · Aug-01-2012, 7:22am

As far as I am concerned for bluegrass you have to have a guitar and a (ugh) banjo, you

I could live without the banjo! ha. I like it sometimes but sometimes not. ANd I guess I'm not a strict constructionist - or whatever that word was that someone used because I am ok with changing things up. I do think the guitar is important but like OP would Jam without it if it came down to that.

And to the Banjo's defense, I do enjoy it sometimes - and wouldn't want it to go away completely. My favorite banjo tune is flatt & scruggs foggy mountain breakdown. I heard a couple recordings of it and the one I like he has this cool banjo chop and every few chops plucks a note slides down the fret bord and it sounds like the guy is spitting in a pale the whole dang song. Love it - Sorry for the tangent.

**Timmando** · Aug-01-2012, 7:39am

Interesting that Wernick recorded without guitar...I didn't know that. I'll have to listen for the album.

Earls backup is what I enjoy also. Alot of banjo players just learn his lead song and ignore learning his backup licks. Some of the best backup licks are in Cripple Creek. He doesn't stop thinking when he is not out front in a song, very tasteful backup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4sqishGuYw

**Mandolin Mick** · Aug-01-2012, 7:42am

I used to think that removing one of the traditional Bluegrass instruments meant "it ain't Bluegrass" ... but, I've changed my mind on this.

One of my favorites is "In the Pines" by Bill Monroe & Jimmy Martin which has no banjo. But, few would say that it's not Bluegrass.

When you go to any large Bluegrass festival, like Bean Blossom, you'll see many combinations of a Bluegrass ensemble. Some will be missing mandolin, fiddle, banjo, guitar, etc., yet they're Bluegrass, albeit maybe not traditional.

I like the classic lineup of mandolin, fiddle, banjo, bass and guitar best, but Bluegrass is about the feel as well as the instrumental lineup.

However, if I had my choice ... the guitar is the most expendable ...

**GTison** · Aug-01-2012, 8:56pm

I'd rather do w/o a guitar than a bass. But to be a full sound the guitar adds so much in the middle even if he takes no breaks. I've practiced w/o the guitar too. I didn't miss it too much but it does sound better with it.

**ralph johansson** · Aug-02-2012, 6:08am

Originally Posted by Mandolin Mick

I used to think that removing one of the traditional Bluegrass instruments meant "it ain't Bluegrass" ... but, I've changed my mind on this.

One of my favorites is "In the Pines" by Bill Monroe & Jimmy Martin which has no banjo. But, few would say that it's not Bluegrass.

When you go to any large Bluegrass festival, like Bean Blossom, you'll see many combinations of a Bluegrass ensemble. Some will be missing mandolin, fiddle, banjo, guitar, etc., yet they're Bluegrass, albeit maybe not traditional.

I like the classic lineup of mandolin, fiddle, banjo, bass and guitar best, but Bluegrass is about the feel as well as the instrumental lineup.

However, if I had my choice ... the guitar is the most expendable ...

Are you referring to the 1952 recording of In the Pines? Sonny Osborne's banjo is very much in evidence on that cut. However, no one has been able to detect a banjo on the 1954 recording of Blue Moon of Kentucky.

**mandocrucian** · Aug-02-2012, 7:08am

Originally Posted by AlanN

I think Country Gazzette tried that one time, forget where or when.

COUNTRY GAZETTE: Bluegrass tonight! (Flying Fish 383)
Produced by Country Gazette & Rich Adler
with Alan Munde, Roland White, Gene Wooten & Billy Joe Foster
guest: Lawrence White

Side A: The great American banjo tune/Don't let nobody tie you down/Poison love/Kentucky waltz/Cabin on a mountain/Hound dogs never die

Side B: You can't get the hell out of Texas/Is there life after you/Right before my eyes/Be nobody's darling but mine/Lonesome day/Colorado turnaround

In the mid-eighties there was an American radio-show of Country Gazette (line-up Alan Munde, Roland White, Gene Wooten an Billy Joe Foster). This radio-show appeared on LP on the Liberty Flyer label (LF 6175) show 007.

Same year Alan Munde released another solo album "In The Tradition" - again all current Country Gazette members played on that album and also ex-member Joe Carr on guitar and mandolin and others.
For this album Alan recorded 4 selfwritten songs, traditionals, two songs from Don Reno, the evergreens "Release me" and "Danny Boy".

http://www.burritobrother.com/gazette7.htm

**Mandolin Mick** · Aug-02-2012, 11:06am

Ralph,

That's what I meant ... don't know why I said "In the Pines" ...

**ellisppi** · Aug-02-2012, 11:30am

I played bass with Eddie Collins around Austin the last few years. Eddie plays banjo and guitar, so we never had guitar and banjo together. The band was bass, fiddle, & mandolin. I like a good rhythm guitar but we adjusted without. I found that I play many more notes on bass when no guitar, and Billy Bright was on mandolin and he plays in a very rhythmic style, so Billy & I really filled in the holes. It wasn't a sparse sound at all. I can play a really driving bass and we were a great rhythm section, + our fiddler is also very rhythmic.

**Willie** · Aug-02-2012, 3:56pm

It`s pretty evident that some of you don`t know what Bluegrass really is....

Thats enough.....

**Mandolin Mick** · Aug-02-2012, 4:30pm

Now Willie, be nice ... I'm you're biggest backer for Classic Bluegrass!

**OldSausage** · Aug-02-2012, 5:14pm

And we play "never knewgrass".

**Mike Bunting** · Aug-02-2012, 5:23pm

Originally Posted by Fretbear

I am on a serious Jimmy Martin kick right now, learning Paul Williams and Vernon Derrick mandolin solos. The clothes alone could put most people off the Sunny Mountain Boys videos on YouTube, etc., but it must be said that Jimmy Martin's contributions on guitar and vocals to bluegrass music cannot be overstated.
Tony Rice's favorite rhythm guitar player had an intensity and mastery in his vocals that was unsurpassed.
If you listen really close, it is almost impossible to hear his guitar unless it is playing a run, and therein lies the sad fate of the best of the bluegrass guitar players; if they do it right, they almost disappear. It is ironic and telling that "the" master rhythm guitar player chose to (uniquely) have that snare drum included in his (very much) bluegrass band.

Gotta agree 100% on Jimmy Martin. Last night, I went to our weekly jam and left the mando at home and to my guitar instead and only played rhythm. I loved it even though my finger tips are sore. Trying to play rhythm properly is a challenge.
P.S. I suppose you could play w/o the guitar but I'd sure miss it. Oh yeah, add Jim Nunally to that list of superb rhythm players.

**Jim Yates** · Aug-03-2012, 12:16am

Originally Posted by Marty Henrickson

I'm with you on this, Brad. Tony's "Manzanita" album proves to me that bluegrass can thrive without a banjo.

While I'm sure that bluegrass can be played without a banjo and some of the music Tony Rice plays is bluegrass of the highest caliber, I wouldn't call Manzanita a bluegrass album. It certainly contains a bluegrass influence, but I think it's stretching it to call it bluegrass.

**dcoventry** · Aug-03-2012, 1:18am

Originally Posted by Willie

It`s pretty evident that some of you don`t know what Bluegrass really is....

Thats enough.....

Wow. Seriously? Really Really? Wow.

**Fretbear** · Aug-03-2012, 2:15am

Originally Posted by Jim Yates

While I'm sure that bluegrass can be played without a banjo and some of the music Tony Rice plays is bluegrass of the highest caliber, I wouldn't call Manzanita a bluegrass album. It certainly contains a bluegrass influence, but I think it's stretching it to call it bluegrass.

You do have to stretch that sentence;
Like "Manzanita was one of the most refined hard-core bluegrass albums ever recorded...."
The only reason there is no banjo on it is because J.D. Crowe was too ill to make the sessions.
The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to reveal......

**Henry Eagle** · Aug-03-2012, 2:53am

Originally Posted by AlanN

I think Country Gazzette tried that one time, forget where or when.

Yessir, on a European tour, they were Alan Munde on banjo, Michael Anderson on bass, Gene Wooten on Dobro and Roland White on mandolin; I believe it was in 1988. Gene Wooten's Dobro sure played an important role in the rhythm section.

Regards,
Henry

**AlanN** · Aug-03-2012, 6:54am

Yeah, it worked with the Country Gazette because of the band make-up and their material. They didn't pack the 'on guitar and lead vocals' kind of picker, a la Tony Rice. The Bluegrass Album Band of course did. Monroe featured the guitar man on lead vocals, Jimmy Martin was that guy, J & J same thing, Charlie Waller was the man in his band, The Osbornes were a bit different, in that Sonny and Bob were the guys, but they always had a guitar man up front. 3TO would not be without Russell Moore.

**dcoventry** · Aug-03-2012, 8:51am

Similarly, I was thought it was odd that the Seldom Scene didn't have a fiddle player, honestly.

If Monroe "invented" BG, than would it be true that any deviation from his line-ups would not be BG?

Oy vey.

**AlanN** · Aug-03-2012, 9:51am

Originally Posted by dcoventry

Similarly, I was thought it was odd that the Seldom Scene didn't have a fiddle player, honestly.

Yeah, that has been debated over the years. On the early records they did, Skaggs-a-roni picked fiddle, fleshed out their smooth sound.

Duffey probably would have made it unbearable...