Improvisation - the role of feedback

[JeffD]

I am with Niles on PhD speak. It seems there is a kind of chatter used amongst intellectuals more to validate their status as intellectuals, rather than to accuratey, clearly, and briefly, communicate their information. Professionally I have to work with all kinds of folks, and a huge part of my job really is to translate into practical understanding the utterances of those whose communications skills are handicapped by a PhD.

[catmandu2]

People in the field use jargon:

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/searc...on&FORM=DTPDIA

Note the two conspicuously differing "uses" (interpretations)

Shrinks use jargon, lawyers use jargon, (musicians use jargon), politicians use rhetoric and poets use metaphor--it is a style of communciation, a technical vernacular. In order to best be understood by colleagues, we use jargon. If a layperson wishes to understand what is being said, translation is often necessary--it's rather standard. I don't see utility in denigrating those using the language of their field, unless it is meant to reduce the speaker to the reader's level

[JonZ]

A lot of what JeffD says is correct, but sometimes what appears to be jargon to the layman has a more specific meaning in the context of a given profession. Legal jargon evolved because someone won or lost a case because they thought their plain language was unambiguous.

"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is."
–Bill Clinton

In academia you have to create a lot of jargon to have specificity. Take I "learned" the scale. Did you pass the scale test? Can you recall it 10 years later? Can you use it? This specificity can be clarified with more explanation, but when you are writing for others in your field, the jargon provides a useful shorthand.

The first rule of writing is to write for your intended audience. The quoted passage was not intended for Mandolin Cafe.

Some specialists write better jargon than others. Some specialists can also write good, vanilla prose when necessary.

[catmandu2]

I wouldn't know exactly which part is "correct" not having any specifics (the articel) to which Jeff or Niles refers, neither do I know what audience is intended by any of it... but if all we're talking about is the one or two or whatever paragraphs Niles posted, I'm defending the use of technical language in general (in other words, I don't think it's generally bad, merely utterance or even unuseful), especially when I can understand it, and it does appear written for the cohort--which is why I asked whether it was writen for a journal (the field). but I certainly don't find myself generally leaving writing or speech uncritiqued, especailly without context, jargon warranted or not. Yeah, I don't think it's probably written for a bunch of musicians

--one of my problems is writing too technically (but I think the way I write and I love to associate freely- you should see my bedroom)...my wife considers me on the aspergers spectrum (I probabkly am) and one of those diagnostic features is a tendency to do our own thing, at least ...I've been accused of writing over my audience for years (for about 30 years) and I don't doubt it. I grew up on vonnegut and I love weird stuff too much

I just bought an oboe ,, can we talk oboes? Jeff you played oboe didn''t you?

[JonZ]

What I meant was jargon can be used for good or evil.

[catmandu2]

What I meant was jargon can be used for good or evil.

Of course. i think we all know that. i intended to say that i'm not sure we know which is the case here (at least I don't). Anyway, I like to use words to describe what I'm feeling generally more than "I can feel it baby...I can groove" (although I like that too...)

[JonZ]

I can dig it.

[catmandu2]

...Dave

[courses]

An alto sax is a very lively instrument. When its warmed by your breath, and held close to the body, the whole thing is vibrating & resonating and yeah, you get feedback plenty! I understand the concept. Singers get feedback only through the head bones and theier chest. Thats part of the reason the national anthem gets so many varied renditions - but once learned, all the mandolinists could play it the same every time.

Hope this makes err... sense.

[catmandu2]

Coming again...

it occurs to me, that...after about 40 years of guitar, and then many other stringed instruments in the ensuing years...there is but one stringed instrument with the physical capacity to enable such great variety, and that I experience very "horn-like" and inspires me to improvise freely (contrabass). I understand that the reason--as is my "rationale" with horns--is from the resonance, physicality, and non-conceptual affinity I feel with the instrument (a different kind of feedback). The contrabass, I've always advocated, is the most expressive instrument, or at least the instrument with the greatest expressive capacity--which should appear obvious by its size and scale length

Listening to this seminar this morning, Mr Turetzky spells it out vividly--at 26:20"--that we sing with our instruments



the contrabass, like the horn (and other viols) is an especially easy instrument with which to emulate the human voice, to paint a picture, make a sound from the heart, sing, and therefore--improvise, to play freely from the heart

You mandolin players--who sing with your instruments--have my admiration. The mandolin is not particularly an easy instrument on which to sing

[JonZ]

My son's bass teacher, Marshal Hawkins, has played with with a lot of jazz greats (both famous and unknown), and he thinks that generally bass players have the best understanding of the ensemble, because they have to listen so carefully to every other instrument to do their job well.

Of course, Bluegrass bass players maybe not so much.

[catmandu2]

Bassists generally do have good ears. One of the reasons that bass was my primo for years--while I was playing out--is because I got to do the most with the music...as our job is to make it all sound good

[Jim Garber]

The mandolin is not particularly an easy instrument on which to sing

I absolutely agree with you, catmandu! To me tho, that is the ultimate goal -- to reach for that singing tone. of course that is much easier on any instrument that has sustain. Bowed instruments and winds are, of course easiest. Plucked instruments can sing but perhaps cannot quite as easily mimic the human voice. And the frets on a mandolin would inhibit even further that singing technique that Mr. Turetzky gets from that Harrison piece with the chopstick.

Thanks a ton for that Turetzky video. I look fwd to watching the whole thing later today.

[catmandu2]

-- to reach for that singing tone.

Simply, we could say that, while music is the medium of choice, playing an instrument is the "problem"--by placing an object between oursleves and our environment--impeding our ability for expression. To the degree that we can solve this problem--mitigate the impediment of the object to enable greater "directness" of connection of the internal with the external--we might facilitate or enhance our ability for expression of our feeling and experience. For me, even though I have loads more technical facility with strings, I have a "direct" affinity with horns, in that, they seem more of an extension of myself and less of an impediment between my heart and the music--therefore allowing me greater resources for "improvisation," as it were

If, for example, we were not inhibited in any way, and possessed requisite technical facility with our voices, we could sing adequately. By placing an object between us and "the music," we create extra dimension to our challenge of expression--and which through its solution constitutes another form of art in and of itself

I guess that's another way to say "one with the instrument"--some may prefer the more succinct description. The point, relative to the OP, is that for me I feel "oneness" (of heart) with horns, and am more apt to have the process of expression "convuluted" by introducing "cerebration" with my more extensive knowledge of the fingerboard, as well as its tactile barrier


vOlute...but on second thought I might say "complicated"

[catmandu2]

One more thought--for I like to exercise my mind while I'm exercising this old body on this bike...

What is "improvisation"? It's a process we can deconstruct to see that it involves many aspects to consider (or tbat we may consider if we wish). Is it enough to say, "playing music is an art"? There is the craft of assimilating mechanics; of assimilating mechanics to enable variation on a theme; to create new themes; artful manipulation of the instrument, to be able to speak, or sing; an aesthetic deployment of speech or song; then, what we are saying, after all?; and so on

We might say that the object of "improvisation" is merely the expression of our innate voice, and that the process through which we come to this object is the art of music. We might say that playing the instrument ranges from craft through art--art being essentially the expression of our selves. Naturally, the ability to sing a thought that is beautiful, and of ourselves, on an "instrument"...is artistic achievement, and that there are many levels of playing, and of improvisation

[Charlieshafer]

OK, that's way too philosophical and metaphysical and existential for me, Cat. Were you suffering oxygen deprivation while on the bike?

[catmandu2]

hyperoxygenation

but I know you're kidding Charlie--it's not any of those things but just looking at process acutely

[jackmalonis]

One more thought--for I like to exercise my mind while I'm exercising this old body on this bike...

What is "improvisation"? It's a process we can deconstruct to see that it involves many aspects to consider (or tbat we may consider if we wish). Is it enough to say, "playing music is an art"? There is the craft of assimilating mechanics; of assimilating mechanics to enable variation on a theme; to create new themes; artful manipulation of the instrument, to be able to speak, or sing; an aesthetic deployment of speech or song; then, what we are saying, after all?; and so on

We might say that the object of "improvisation" is merely the expression of our innate voice, and that the process through which we come to this object is the art of music. We might say that playing the instrument ranges from craft through art--art being essentially the expression of our selves. Naturally, the ability to sing a thought that is beautiful, and of ourselves, on an "instrument"...is artistic achievement, and that there are many levels of playing, and of improvisation

So fun to think, about especially when you contemplate the mind/body/instrument connections and millisecond reactions that occur willingly or unwillingly during improvisation.

I think Oliver Sacks talks some on this in his book "Musicophilia", which I would recommend to anyone who likes to muse on music and mind.

Cat, wasn't you who posted the video that pointed out that the "instrument" is a cold hard bitch that doesn't want you to play her and that we are the actual instruments, furthering the illusion that pressing a key or picking a string is "music"?

[ralph johansson]

I think we also expect singing to be easier, since we a just using our voice. Very few people who try to improvise vocals have put in the same hours of technical work as your typical instrumentalist.

What about those who manage to improvise?

[ralph johansson]

On Saxophone you anticipate which key you will press, on violin it seems you don't have the same anticipation since there is no clear cut fret or button etc. so you're already losing some of that "body awareness" stimulus.

With the voice you have even less stimuli. You can anticipate your next note neither with sight or touch. Unless you have perfect pitch your next note is based almost solely around the last one you sang, and trying to "imagine" the interval between your last note and the next.

You can imagine your 3rd finger pressing a G on the sax, but you can't imagine the vocal cord exertion required to sing a G.

I believe that's exactly what is needed, even if you don't have perfect pitch. Certainly a trained singer will find the key he's accustomed to without fishing for it or consulting an instrument or pitch pipe or whatever.

[mandocrucian]

On Saxophone you anticipate which key you will press, on violin it seems you don't have the same anticipation since there is no clear cut fret or button etc. so you're already losing some of that "body awareness" stimulus.

Yeah....for beginner players. Total baloney when it comes to advanced players. An advanced string player "knows" exactly where to put the finger on the neck. And beyond that, depending on the microtonal inflection of the pitch, will put the finger down where the mental ear "hears" the pitch. And, an advanced fretted instrument player that has an interest in string bending can go directly to the amount of note bend before sounding the string.

Haven't ever tried sax, but I assume there are many similarities with closed hole Boehm flutes. Just pressing the key on a flute doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be precisely "on pitch". How hard/soft you blow, angle across the headjoint, rolling the headjoint all will affect the pitch. Someone who's good will automatically adjust to compensate for the idiosyncracies of the instrument and it's particular scale issues.

[SincereCorgi]

Haven't ever tried sax, but I assume there are many similarities with closed hole Boehm flutes. Just pressing the key on a flute doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be precisely "on pitch"...

I second this. If you treat the keywork on a flute or clarinet or saxophone as buttons on an accordion, you easily end up around 30 or 40 cents sharp or flat on any given pitch. What's trickier is that sometimes you want to be a little high if, for example, you're the third in a major chord, which is one reason why fingering charts offer so many options and covered fingerings. I was thinking that, according to the professor's theory, it seems like a melodica would be the ideal instrument for improvisation.

[catmandu2]

KReeds and mouthpieces, mouthpieces and reeds: the endless pursuit

Embouchure is the essence

I thought I was into something really gear-intensive when I was windsurfing...until I got heavily into woodwinds

And now, I'm smitten with double-reeds - which is ever more elusive, persnickety, and demanding. Are we not masochists...

[catmandu2]

Cat, wasn't you who posted the video that pointed out that the "instrument" is a cold hard bitch that doesn't want you to play her and that we are the actual instruments, furthering the illusion that pressing a key or picking a string is "music"?

Yes, Mr Galper uses the more succinct terminology there doesn't he ...although I don't think he always relies on the succinct approach to elucidate the myriad aspects of music--both sacred and profane

Poets often use many words to say a simple thing -B.H.

[Tommando]

Re: Improvisation - the role of feedback

I don't use feedback when improvising since I quit using an amplifier. I used to enjoy it, though.