A new 'tower' (Bose type) rig coming

[almeriastrings]

I recently had the chance to try one of these:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb12/articles/maui.htm

Normally, I use a pair of Fishman SA220's.

My impression: There is indeed some noticeable 'separation' or lack of cohesion from the perspective of the stage sound. From the audience perspective, it sounds absolutely fine. Closer in, though, you can distinctly hear some of the sound coming from the sub, and the HF seems to shoot out over your head. This is not the case with the Fishman units, where it is all very much "together" and sounds really natural. This may be due to the fact that the thing is quite large, and inevitably, the greater physical separation between the drivers is going to be more obvious the closer you are to them. So, although I though this was a nice system, I personally much preferred the Fishman's sound. Also worth noting that the Maui has no direct mic or instrument preamps built in, and no EQ or FX. It only has line ins, and even if playing solo, with one instrument + mic, you'll still need to haul a mixer along. The bass response is quite impressive though. Surprisingly tight and well controlled for such a relatively small sub.

That's the MAUI 28, which has been on the market for a few months now.

I just found out though, that another model in this series is due out late August/September. This is a preview:

http://www.ld-systems.com/index.php?...id=405&clang=1

As soon as I can borrow one to test, I will give it go alongside the Fishman's. Looks interesting. Price seems very reasonable....if the sound is more 'together' on this, it will be a nice addition to the other options in this segment of the market.

[Tim2723]

It was only a matter of time until someone started making their own versions of the Bose towers (I avoid the term clone). From a size and power rating standpoint this one fills the gap between the Bose Compact and the larger Model I and II towers. I'm not certain we really need a mid-size tower though. Since all these are geared toward the solo performer or small group in small and medium venues, I'd rather see the concept developed for large rooms while maintaining the actual advantages of the towers, which is portability, small footprint, and fast set-up.

With no mixing capabilities this is really more of a powered speaker than a PA system.

I expect we'll see any number of 'vertical line arrays' hit the market as the Bose and Fishman gain popularity (we may even come to adopt the term).

[TonyP]

Very interesting article, thanks for that.

By both reviews(Al's and the article) it doesn't lend itself to the same use as a monitor because of division of the crossovers. Makes you wonder why they didn't make each section complete, so you could tailor the unit to it's needed coverage by using one or both of the lines. And this would help with the problem of having too much of one freq in your face up close. To me this is a major drawback, as your audience is going to be experiencing this too in tight quarters. I wish there was more attention paid to tight quarters by manufacturers. It's easy when you have a lot of space, not so in a coffee house with no stage and you are toe to toe with your audience like so many of us are.

I like the idea of the built in sub as the stand. And if it's affordable enough, adding a mixer is not big deal, and would probably be the normal addon anyway.

I would think it's going to be all about affordability as to whether VLA's are going to become popular. And there is the fact, we acoustic musicians want the equipment to become invisible, and so does our audience.

[Tim2723]

Oddly enough Tony, one of the biggest advantages of the Bose (especially the Compact model) it that it becomes virtually invisible to the audience. Not only is it small, but more importantly it doesn't look like a speaker. People in restaurants will walk in, take one look at those big black boxes on tripod stands, and head for the back room. Or even worse, out the door. With the Bose, we've had nothing but compliments not only on the sound quality, but on being unobtrusive to the whole evening's experience.

[TonyP]

I'm totally hip to that Tim. We have plenty of folks who are totally gun shy to my big speakers. Even though I've never been told to turn down, most times they want us louder. I would LOVE to find something simple, believe me.

Since you've been a convert, I've been actively looking to listen to some Bose critically. In May, my SO's niece got married and they did it large. The reception was in a huge room and the dj had two large Bose towers. According to the bride, this guy was "it" for sound and dj's in the Cape Cod area. The party went on for at least 4hrs with all kinds of music and the occasional speech(being a wedding) through the system.

I REALLY wanted to like it, and I walked the room to make sure where I was( on the back wall) wasn't messing with the sound. It pretty much sounded the same through out. The best I could describe it was muddy. Speech was not very intelligible. It looked like your usual 58 was what being used. And all the music seemed scooped out, like the mid's were not "present" with a boomy bass and very accentuated hi's. Not my cup of tea to say the least. Nobody else seemed to share my ear for what was going on. So I don't know if it's just me, or the way the guy had his system tweeked. But I heard it before the dance floor was full, so I got the direct sound, and that's when I noticed the speech not being clear. I chalked it up to a cheap mic, or? But when the music started, and it went from everything to rap to Sinatra, I got the full dose.

Possibly this dj is not a good ambassador for Bose because his and my ears don't like the same sound. But it had that same sound I've come to associate with Bose. Several hi end restaurants around had that multi speaker setup that was big with Bose in the 90's, with the little bitty satellites and a sub. It always catches my ear, wow, then quickly fatigues. I don't mean to dis your and other's equipment and experience with it. Just a IMHO thing. I continue to listen if I see another, and would like to hear the Fishman and any other MVLA(refined to mini VLA, as most arena systems are VLA's nowadays).

[Tim2723]

DJ's in general aren't great ambassadors for sound of any kind. They tend to push the bass and volume far beyond reasonable limits in my experience. The Bose towers seem to be popular with them because of their percieved portability. But DJs, being bass-intensive as they are, end up carrying several of the sub woofer units and eventually have more gear than they would have with a conventional system. If the Bose is used as it is intended, the clarity is remarkable. No matter what gear is used, you still have to know how to run it and you have to use it within its intended limits. One of the most common mistakes is to overdrive the system by using the mixer as an amp. I think a lot of users have the mistaken impression that they should be louder than they are because they cost so much. But there comes a point where a 200 watt amp can't substitute for a 2000 watt system. Simple as that.

This is also behind my earlier comment about adapting the technology to large rooms. The Bose and similar are not built for large rooms. Big spaces have their own special needs. It all stems from the mis-conception of one-size-fits-all. If I played in more than a duo I might not have a Bose tower. If we had drums or played bass I probably wouldn't have one. And if I were a DJ in a large room the last thing I would have is a Bose tower.

[foldedpath]

It was only a matter of time until someone started making their own versions of the Bose towers (I avoid the term clone).

Well, Bose didn't invent the idea, and there have been other alternatives around for quite a while now, like the Renkus-Heinz systems that have a steerable array coverage in software. Pricier than Bose, though, so it's not a system many musicians supplying their own PA's will use. This is aimed more at convention center display market, I think.

I expect we'll see any number of 'vertical line arrays' hit the market as the Bose and Fishman gain popularity (we may even come to adopt the term).

(Raises red protest flag) I hope we don't adopt that term.

Aside from the fact that all line arrays in sound reinforcement are vertical by definition (which makes "vertical line array" kinda redundant), not all these compact tower-style PA's are designed to function as true line arrays. For example the Bose Compact uses splayed speakers for better horizontal coverage, but that defeats the phase relationship required for controlling the vertical beam axis. In other words, it ain't a line array.

Even when these systems are designed more-or-less along the line array concept (like the larger Bose L1), the way theyre used in practice often defeats the effect. If you play in a restaurant or coffee house, you're not likely to be up on a high stage where the full array can fire over the heads of the audience in the front rows. A good part of the array will be blocked by the first rows of the audience, as well as any acoustic shadowing by the performers if they're playing in front of the speakers in the recommended "self monitoring" position.

In a coffeehouse or small restaurant it doesn't matter, because you're not trying to reach more than a few people anyway. In larger rooms it matter. A "true" line array would be placed much higher to create the classic narrow vertical beam that allows front-to-back coverage over a larger space. This is something that a conventional PA speaker placed high on a stand actually does much better, but I'll get to that later.


For all those reasons, I think we'd be better off avoiding the term "line array" which has a very specific meaning in the pro audio world, and is often abused when marketing these small portable systems. The term "vertical array" might be a better description that avoids the marketing buzzwords, and it would cover systems like the Bose Compact without confusion.

[TonyP]

I think a lot of users have the mistaken impression that they should be louder than they are because they cost so much.

LOL!

I have to admit I avoid dj's and their venues like the plague. Most of what I've heard was from a very far distance where all I could hear was the thump, thump. They probably are like so many rock PA drivers that I've been subjected to as a musician for years. I've never gone back and looked at how they had the rig set, but I know my ears don't like the same sound. So I'd agree absolutely with you Tim and it's why I've not closed the book on the Bose yet.

The only other time I noticed someone trying to use a Bose(except for the band I was briefly a member, and they couldn't get it to work live because of feedback, so they fell back to the house sys and I never did get to hear it) was on a cruise ship. It was being used for break music for a one man band, and was on really low. So never did get to hear what it sounded like. One day I hope to hear some acoustic musicians who know and like the Bose so I can really get a good dose of what it can do.

[MikeEdgerton]

I expect we'll see any number of 'vertical line arrays' hit the market as the Bose and Fishman gain popularity (we may even come to adopt the term).

We should adopt the term, it's about time. The first time I heard it was around 1976 when I was a HiFi geek. I think that was when I built my first set. Dr. Bose was touting little tiny speakers in arrays and everyone was trying it out. I'm trying to remember if Audio Amateur magazine published plans for one of those. Everything old is new again.

There it is, 1957.

[foldedpath]

Oddly enough Tony, one of the biggest advantages of the Bose (especially the Compact model) it that it becomes virtually invisible to the audience. Not only is it small, but more importantly it doesn't look like a speaker. People in restaurants will walk in, take one look at those big black boxes on tripod stands, and head for the back room. Or even worse, out the door.

The low visual profile is definitely an advantage for some situations like restaurants or wedding receptions. I'm sensitive to that, because our duo (and sometimes trio) has been shifting more to wedding work lately.

However, not all of us with conventional PA's are using the giant PA cabs of the past. Small powered speakers like the 8" EV ZXA1's we use for monitors, or the 10" QSC K10's we use for mains, aren't all that massive when placed on a speaker stand. Speakers like our K10's with a full front grill just look like home stereo speakers. PA cabs with exposed horns look scarier, but there has been a trend in the better compact powered speakers lately (JBL, QSC, RCF) towards the covered grill look. And the small size really does help.

When we need the lower profile look for restaurants or wedding receptions, we're usually playing at a low enough volume that we can place the speakers behind the band, off to the side, tucked into a corner or whatever. I've played outdoor weddings where the speakers were just sitting on the ground beside us. For what it's worth, I've never seen customers enter a room, see our speakers, and scurry out of the joint.

In situations where we can use conventional stand placement, I think there is an undeniable advantage in room coverage. It allows firing the mids and highs over the heads of the audience members sitting close to the band, so you're reaching the back of the room without blasting those in front. Again, that's irrelevant in a coffee house, but I like having a system that can scale up or down to cover different situations.

There is also that pesky issue of whether a musician can relate to monitoring their sound from behind their ears, in the recommended usage of the Bose system. Not everyone likes that, or can adjust to it. My guitar-playing partner in our duo also plays in another duo that uses a Bose L1. Actually I think they're now using 2 L1's, owned by the other band member. My partner hates using that system, because the sound of his guitar is swimming around the room and bouncing off walls and ceiling before it gets to his ears. He prefers the sound system we use when we play together, where we have one or two little 8" powered EV ZXA1's as a floor monitor right in front of our feet, where we can hear each other clearly in a noisy venue.

Now, all of this has to be balanced against the undeniable advantage of portability and fast setup with the Bose L1 and similar systems. I would be very surprised though, if the "vertical array + monitoring from behind your ears" concept totally replaces conventional compact PA's for small venues. It's a good option for some, but I don't think it's for everyone.

I'm also not impressed with the overall sound quality of the Bose systems I've heard, but that could be due to operator error (as with the DJ example), and that's a more subjective area anyway. I've never had the opportunity to compare the system to a conventional PA where I could set up the sound on both systems for a comparison.

[Tim2723]

Well, we tend to take the same roles and make the same arguments every time the subject comes up. But really, "It's a good option for some, but I don't think it's for everyone" is the crux of the matter.

These were aimed at a specific market: Solo performers in small to medium venues, playing acoustic music, one dynamic vocal mic and a AE guitar. They aren't intended for five piece Bluegrass bands with condenser mics, nor were they ever intended for DJs pumping out wall-shaking bass with program music. When you think of it, they're really an elaborate modification of the acoustic amplifier You wouldn't do those things with a little acoustic amp, and if you tried you wouldn't complain when it failed.

Like everything else in the music world, we push every idea to its limits. In this case the manufacturer was happy to oblige. You want to use it for a whole band? Simple, everybody buy one of their own. You want to use drums and electric bass? Sure, here's additional bass enclosures and power amps. You want to plug in a mixer and turntables? No sweat, we can do that too! Bose themselves have gotten far from their original intent. Today you're not supposed to put them behind you anymore (you're behind the times, FP). You put them to the side and blast away because somebody noticed that you can still hear yourself when standing next to it.

The Bose Compact is a 250 watt powered speaker. I can comfortably play any job with it that I would do with my 200 watt, 2 X 10 PA. The larger Model II is a 750 watt speaker that will play any job my 800 watt, 2 X 12 system would do. But nothing more. They cost way more than my conventional systems. I am willing to pay that price for the convenience that's engineered into them, but I don't expect them to do anything they can't do because that's where these ideas fail every time. But for my needs they work perfectly and more easily than anything I've ever used, and I won't use anything else until the next best gimmick comes along.

[foldedpath]

Bose themselves have gotten far from their original intent. Today you're not supposed to put them behind you anymore (you're behind the times, FP). You put them to the side and blast away because somebody noticed that you can still hear yourself when standing next to it.

It's good to hear that it works better that way, but if I'm behind the times, then Bose is too with their current marketing. They modify the earlier advice somewhat on the current web page:

"Using proprietary Bose technology, L1 systems combine PA and monitors into a single, highly portable unit that can be positioned behind or to the side of individuals onstage."

But the current owner's manual (PDF download on the Bose site) says the following on page 15, under "Placing the product in the right location for your performance":

"Place the product at the rearmost part of the performance area or stage.
If possible, position the product behind the performer"

That's followed by diagrams showing placement behind the musicians.

If the users are discovering better ways to use the system then that's great, but it's not in the official recommendations. And that info isn't filtering down to owners in the field who aren't following forums like this. The other band my guitar partner is playing in, uses the rear tower placement because that Bose owner thinks it should be used that way. For reasons involving band politics and the preservation of personal relationships, I'm not going to suggest they try something different.

[almeriastrings]

We always place the Fishmans to each side..very much as you would a conventional system. You can easily hear enough for monitoring purposes without a problem that way and can also attain very respectable levels without feedback, even with condenser instrument mics in use (SM94's and SM81's). The sheer physics of it dictate that if you place a loudspeaker right behind the mic feeding it, you have to increase the feedback potential. The speaker is right in the maximum zone of sensitivity for the mics... no way around that.

[Tim2723]

The Bose advertising is the same as it ever was and the manuals still say what they say, but if you hang out at the forum you'll notice more and more users treating these as a conventional PA. The Bose reps there will give the company line, of course, but then they'll help you do whatever configuration you're thinking about. Add speakers, add power amps, multiple towers, mix and match gear, whatever. They're not about to give up sales. If you want to stand to the side of it, go ahead.

[Willie Poole]

I have used the Bose L-1 for over three years now and have tried it behind me, off to the side and right in front of the band...I have found that if you are using a mixer with an EQ and plug into the jacks that are come after the preamp and you try to control the volume with the main control on the mixer you will get feedback but using the voulme control on the remote control you can really jack it up with out feedback problems to a certain extent...I usually always use monitors now to keep from getting feedback and place the tower off to one side and facing straight ahead....At 750 watts I don`t (have never) seen any use for more than one tower and we have played some huge city parks and outdoor functions and the sound carries well...Also I have never seen any need to hoist it way up in the air...

Like Tim, I haven`t seen anything to compare with it and will continue to use it until someone convinces me there is something better...We played a gig yesterday at American Univ. in DC and it was on a HUGE quadrangle and people that were lined up going into the building for lunch said they could hear it just fine and they were a good 500 ft away from the stage area and the people that were close said it wasn`t too loud for them to enjoy it also.....I will admit that it makes my band sound very professional....and it will take some experimenting to find the best way of using it, if you know someone that uses one ask them questions on what is the best way to set it up....

Willie

[almeriastrings]

The audibility at a distance, combined with the fact that levels no not need to be deafening close-up is one of the features that really 'converted' me to such systems. It really is very impressive. We ran a gig a couple of weeks ago for a very fine fingerstyle guitarist, and I took a bit of a stroll around the venue (which was outdoors) specifically to see how things were sounding - as Willie says, even at hundreds of feet away you could not only hear every note, but you could clearly hear the quality and fine detail of the tone produced... I had him miked up through a single SM94 mixed via the desk with the output from the Fishman Aura in his guitar. Afterwards, he told me that the sound was "fantastic" and how much he enjoyed performing through the system (two SA220's, an Allen & Heath Zed12fx + SM94). There were around 350 in the audience and there were many comments on how good everything sounded. At the end of the night I also had the whole thing broken down and packed in the car (OK, it is a large 4X4, but still not a truck!) within 30 minutes. With the system I would have used until we got this rig, I'd still be there 2 hours later....

[Mandobart]

I had never seen the LD systems before, thanks for the link. I noticed that U.S. isn't one of the country options under "find a dealer." I googled them and found no U.S. links either. Anyone know if the LD Maui line is even available in the US or Canada?

[Tim2723]

...I have found that if you are using a mixer with an EQ and plug into the jacks that are come after the preamp and you try to control the volume with the main control on the mixer you will get feedback but using the voulme control on the remote control you can really jack it up with out feedback problems to a certain extent...

That's one of the mistakes that a lot of users have made, and at least in part is probably at the root of many of the feedback horror stories we hear about these things. With the Compact model there is no remote, so you have to control master volume from the base of the unit. But the idea is not to use the mixer as an amp. Use the amp as the amp. Every PA will eventually feedback, but you can get a lot more out of the Bose than many realize.