Woodworking Chisels

[OldGus]

I'd like to get some suggestions on chisels and gouges for mandolin building from some of the experts. Thanks in advance!

[the padma]

I am an old wood carver...got more chisels than Harbor Freight probably got in their warehouse. BUT... a chisel is just a chisel, weather you use it for building mandos or guitars or canoes.

They say old steel is better than new and that the more expensive the better.

I say its just B.S.* Not really but...
the bottom line is what can you afford and do you know how to sharpen them, regardless of cost, make or age.

A $20 bill should get you a whole bunch of good old chisels on ebay.

1/4 3/8 1/2 5/8s is about all you really need ~ and even thats overkill for a beginner luthier.


Now if you got money to burn....then git yourself a set of old socket Eskilstuna chisels ... they are hard to find... best bet is on Ebay Europe / Sweden Denmark or Norway.


Regarding gouges...I prefer Henry Taylor. If you gonna be carving plates for F 5s. learn how to make convex planes ...look on you tube or buy a few Ibex planes...The reason I say make is because the brass body Ibex planes (expensive) get very hot and tend to raise blisters compared to wooden body planes.

Now regarding what appears to be you new hobby ~ looferiziming around...hope you gotta lotta spare cash. Collecting ants in a jar is a much cheaper hobby and less stressful.


blessings
duh Padma

* B.S. ~ belief systems

[OldGus]

Thanks Padma! I appreciate your insight. I am hoping to do it as cheaply and as much by hand as within reason. I have a neighbor friend with a bunch of tools so I can probably get his help or borrow some as needed. I know there will be a lot of satisfaction in playing my own handmade instrument if I am successful. I've owned enough and spent enough already on mandolins. I don't mind taking my time and working hard at it, I just don't want to screw up and plan to take it one step at a time. I think I might buy a mould from Roger Siminoff and some chisels and a used scroll saw. In the meantime I will resaw the walnut block I bought on Ebay. I am planning on carving the back before I start on anything else. Does that sound reasonable? Are the finger planes and scrapers mostly used for the top?

[Marty Jacobson]

Narex chisels from Highland Woodworking are a superb value for straight and skew chisels.
For gouges I use Flexcut chisels. Also very inexpensive. They come with a pack of band-aids... and you might need them, they are very sharp. Mine are 10 years old and I have never sharpened them, just strop them with a PowerStrop.
I'd start with a 1/2 and 1/4 Narex, and a set of 3 or 4 Flexcuts, some scrapers, and for under $75 you should have a good start.

Narex chisels: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/n...sel-set-4.aspx
Flexcut gouges: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/f...et5-piece.aspx (this is a set of small tools -- they have a wide range)
PowerStrop:http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/p...honingkit.aspx

[sunburst]

My strategy has been to haunt tool sales, auctions, antique stores and such and grab what's available at good prices. Once I get them home, I can start repairing, grinding and sharpening and start to know which ones have good steel in them. If they show promise, they get used and then I can find which ones hold an edge well, and they become my favorites.
Things I look for that are mostly just my preferences, but are generally better for utility:
-length. Often, longer is better because the handle doesn't interfere with another part of the instrument and cause problems where the work is going on.
-straightness. Many older chisels (and some newer ones) will lie flat on a flat surface. In other words, the handle tilts up in the direction of the bevel so that paring cuts can be made without the handle causing interference, I prefer those chisels to ones where the handle won't let the blade lie flat. I've noticed that some brands that used to be made "the good way" are no longer made that way.

In spite of all the "yard sale" chisels I've bought, I have a set of new (relatively speaking, I've probably had them over 20 years) Freud bevel edge chisels that are not very long and won't lie flat, but I use them all the time.

Bevel edge chisels are handy for some things (like dovetails) and not as handy for other things, so a mixture of "regular" and bevel edge chisels can be a good thing.

You'll find scrapers work much better on harder woods than on spruce, so the usual maple back and spruce top will normally have you using planes and scrapers on both plates, but more scraping and less sanding for the back.

[Charlieshafer]

I'm a Japanese chisel nut for fine work. You can get them so sharp that paring is an effortless breeze, and they seem to hold their edge forever. Just never loan them out. I get them from Japanese Woodworker. The price may seem high, until you use them.

[amowry]

I'm like John-- I've gotten most of my chisels and gouges at yard sales and flea markets. The prices are usually such that if the steel turns out to be no good, it's not a big deal. I try to find the ones with sockets for the handles, because it's the easiest kind of handle to make, and they're really sturdy.

[Texas]

Thanks Padma! I appreciate your insight. I am hoping to do it as cheaply and as much by hand as within reason. I have a neighbor friend with a bunch of tools so I can probably get his help or borrow some as needed. I know there will be a lot of satisfaction in playing my own handmade instrument if I am successful. I've owned enough and spent enough already on mandolins. I don't mind taking my time and working hard at it, I just don't want to screw up and plan to take it one step at a time. I think I might buy a mould from Roger Siminoff and some chisels and a used scroll saw. In the meantime I will resaw the walnut block I bought on Ebay. I am planning on carving the back before I start on anything else. Does that sound reasonable? Are the finger planes and scrapers mostly used for the top?

I hope you are not my neighbor because I NEVER loan my tools and don't be surprised if your neighbor says the same thing. It has taken years of sweat to amass my tools and most woodworkers are like me in that regard. Good luck and eBay is your friend.

[bmac]

Another excellent source of new chisels is Pearl Paint, in NYC (artist supply store). They have an on-line catalogue. They have a great selection of sculptors chisels. As suggested by some above...a cheap chisel is usually not a quality chisel. A 2 inch wide shallow gouge can be very effective in shaping the top and bottom plates. I have one and find it useful for all kinds of woodworking projects like neck shaping as well as household projects like furniture repair and rebuilding

[the padma]

I'd make the body first. Then the plates to fit. Or if you wish to do the plated first. I suggest a 3/16 inch over hang and trim down to fit.


Go here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/v...&sd=a&start=25

On page 2 of this thread I do a tutorial on how to make your own convex mini planes.

Regarding borrowing and loaning...I avoid this practice at all costs. If I need something...I'll make it or buy it. Too many tools came back broken, misused, abused or simply never made it back home. If I borrow and it breaks I had to replace it and then still had to buy it for myself. I run a shop not a library.


blessings
duh Padma

[Bill Snyder]

I hope you are not my neighbor because I NEVER loan my tools and don't be surprised if your neighbor says the same thing. It has taken years of sweat to amass my tools and most woodworkers are like me in that regard. Good luck and eBay is your friend.

That is funny. I have been a finish carpenter for 20 years now and I have a pretty good collection of both power tools and hand tools. There are several people I know that can borrow any tool I own. By the same token they will all loan me anything I might want to borrow. This relationship comes in handy when you find that you need a tool you have never needed before and doubt that you will need again and one of your friends happens to have one.

[sunburst]

Generally, we know who to lend to and who not to lend to. Actually, I don't recall ever loaning a tool, though I've had folks over to use the bandsaw and such. I was once asked to loan a gouge, and the guy who asked was not very experienced, so two things came to mind; 1) a damaged tool, and more importantly, 2) a damaged borrower! I said 'come on over and I'll do the job for you'. Problem solved.

[Bill Snyder]

I will admit most of the people of whom I speak are professional woodworkers of one sort or another.

[barney 59]

That is funny. I have been a finish carpenter for 20 years now and I have a pretty good collection of both power tools and hand tools. There are several people I know that can borrow any tool I own. By the same token they will all loan me anything I might want to borrow. This relationship comes in handy when you find that you need a tool you have never needed before and doubt that you will need again and one of your friends happens to have one.

Yes,good to lend tools to people that have and use tools. That way you can also borrow. I have a use for a tile saw right now but I sure don't want to own one! The suggestion for Swedish Eskiltuna chisels "Erik Anton Berg" I have to second. I have a few and are among my favorite chisels to use.

[OldGus]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I really appreciate it. I know getting some help finding quality hand tools can save me time, money, frustration and effort. My neighbor is all about being neighborly and helping out. We sourced some local wood together and got a chunk of Ash, Walnut and Cherry after a local storm downed a bunch of trees. He will be building some things also. I will probably just get him to help in re sawing the block of curly black walnut I got from Oregon . I am keeping it in the back of my mind that he is willing to help but taking it one step at a time and planning to do as much by hand myself as I can. Here are some of the gouges I am considering http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Cherries...item3377bd41f9 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurricane-HS...item25732f751c. The Japanese gouges look really good also. I figure the Hurricanes look similar to the Henry Taylor but are a bit cheaper. What sizes do you guys recommend other than 2"? Padma you were talking about flat chisels when you mentioned the sizes, right? I appreciate the suggestion of wood planes the advantage had not occurred to me. I think I'll go with the Narex chisels or perhaps some used Eskiltunas.

[Marty Jacobson]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurricane-HS...item25732f751c.

OK -- if I understand correctly, you are looking for gouges for carving instruments, right? This Hurricane product is a roughing gouge. It's intended for being used on a lathe, primarily for making square stock round before more detailed operations. Looks like a nice one, but it would be 100% useless for carving plates. I believe all Hurricane branded products are for use on the lathe only.

They are not sharp in the same way that carving gouges are. You grind them to get a wire edge on them, because all it really needs to do is be hard and rigid and the RPM of the lathe do the rest. Carving gouges you will be able to tell because they will have thinner blades and shorter handles. Like these:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Japa...Set-of-6/G7957

Also, John mentioned it briefly, but learning how to sharpen the tools you get is FAR more important than whatever brand you end up with. There are many schools of thought, but one of the fastest ways to get started is stickyback sandpaper and a flat surface-- even the table of your bandsaw will work in a pinch, though most people use float glass or a ground granite or cast iron plate of some kind.

[OldGus]

Thanks for setting me straight Martin. Those Grizzlies look like a good function of cost vs. value. I also got another nod to Henry Taylors from another online source but they suggested to just buy one or two for finishing work. Do you think I might get by with a cheap set like these http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-PCs-Profe...item4ab9deb69b or would I be wasting my money. Do you think it would be reasonable to sharpen them well with those hand stones? All the videos I saw of sharpening on YouTube used electric sharpening wheels.

[sunburst]

Sharpening is a skill that takes time, study, and understanding to learn, and practice to become proficient at. Relatively few craftsmen learn to sharpen and sharpen well these days, there are few people from which to learn, and power tools have taken the place of hand tools for many people in many trades. It's hard to know if sharpening skills are lacking because of so many power tools or if there are so many power tools because so few people know how to really sharpen hand tools.
Both have their place, power tools and hand tools, but if we take the time to learn to sharpen and use hand tools, we may find that many jobs can be accomplished just as well if not better with hand tools.

You don't need an electric sharpening wheel, or a sharpening wheel at all, though having one (and knowing how to use it) can really speed up the initial steps of sharpening.

Sounds like you're starting from somewhere near square one. Your best plan may be to get a couple of chisels and decide upon a sharpening system and start learning to sharpen. Personally, I like sharpening stones as opposed to the sandpaper methods some use, but that could be partly because I've used stones since I was about 8 years old. I sharpened for years without any power sharpening tools, but I found a good price on a used Tormec grinder and it speeds up my sharpening quite a lot. After the grinder, I use whichever I need of two different grit "diamond stones" (for repairing damaged edges), Japanese water stones, and Arkansas stones. I find that a hard Arkansas stone gives me a sharp enough edge for any work I do. I have a "surgical black" Arkansas stone that will refine the edge further, but there is nothing to be gained in performance, in my experience, because a couple of cuts and I'm right back to an edge about like that from the hard Arkansas. How sharp is that? I prefer my pocket knife to an Xacto knife for most things because the pocket knife is sharper... except for when I've been neglecting my sharpening, which does tend to happen. And that brings up another point; the more chisels you have and use, the more sharpening you have to do, so getting by with fewer can save time.

[Marty Jacobson]

I also got another nod to Henry Taylors from another online source but they suggested to just buy one or two for finishing work. Do you think I might get by with a cheap set like these....

Well, think of it this way.... you're going to buy some nice Sitka or Englemann, some one of a kind curly maple, etc. Then you're really going to wish you had a nice chisel in your hand to make sure you don't turn your nice tonewood into nice firewood.

I think anything is fine if it is decent enough steel to sharpen repeatedly. I can tell that the steel is pretty cheesy on those Chinese chisels due to way the black oxide coating is applied. You get what you pay for.
You know how hard it is to play a mandolin which is not well set up. Carving with poor quality chisels is like that.

Henry Taylors are good by all accounts, so are Robert Sorby tools, Two Cherries, etc. I'd recommend you go to a Woodcraft or Rockler and hold them in your hand and make your decision that way if you're still on the fence.

Those Narex bench chisels are a no brainer for $27, though. :-) Good luck!

[bmac]

A block of curly walnut may work fine, assuming you have some woodworking knowledge and skills... The curly aspect of the grain makes the cutting and splitting unpredictable and awkward. Sharp tools will take care of much of that problem but for ease of construction straight grained wood may be easier and more predictable when cutting and bending. I am probably creating issues where there are none but grain is something to be quite aware of cause it might be problematic.

[OldGus]

Time will tell Bart but I'm going to give it a whirl. I don't think the local wood we sourced will be figured. I am now pretty set of getting some gouges from Pfeil http://www.woodcraft.com/family/2001295/2001295.aspx at my local WoodnCraft. What sizes should I get? I am planning on picking up two unless I go for a small set of four or five and either the Narex chisels or this set of used Eskiltunas http://www.ebay.com/itm/200789181825...84.m1423.l2649 some of which are damaged. What do you guys think of those? I am also planning on picking up a sharpening stone while at WoodnCraft. What size finger planes do I need? I plan to get two of those as well. I don't know that I want to get side tracked trying to make them as I am just a novice woodworker. Thanks again for taking you time to point me in the right direction. Speaking of getting side tracked on a random note, this is pretty cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=U7JHFBF_Euw.

[the padma]

Ok so if your gonna go with Pfeil, may I suggest not getting their gouges. Instead get this scorp. It works faster and much easier to use. Since I got mine, I very seldom use the gouges for carving plates.


http://http://www.woodcraft.com/Prod...ade-Scorp.aspx



And make your own finger planes or get the Ibex convex planes.


blessings

[Marty Jacobson]

Ok so if your gonna go with Pfeil, may I suggest not getting their gouges. Instead get this scorp. It works faster and much easier to use. Since I got mine, I very seldom use the gouges for carving plates....

Oh, great point, Padma... chisels aren't everything. You should definitely continue with your plan to get them. But finger/convex planes are essential, as well, or something that does that job.

I know it's a cheapie, but this thing is really great. Not a D'Angelico plane, but it almost does the job of one. At the price it's a steal, IMHO.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/STEELEX-BOWL...-/370620382526

[amowry]

I have the same tool, in fact I reviewed it in American Lutherie a few years ago, and for the price it can't be beat. I use it in lieu of gouges most of the time.

[OldGus]

Great suggestion Padma! That's just like the one I saw on Ebay a few days ago and missed. It seems that pulling may be easier or more accurate than pushing, is that right? Will just that one be enough? I could start there and then order more if needed or check garage sales, etc. in the meantime. What size Ibex planes should I get if I go that route? I'm thinking I could attach something to the side of an Ibex plane to keep the heat from bothering me too much. Any suggestions of what sharpening tools to get for hand sharpening? Martin is that "spoon" for bowl carving will replace the need for a finger plane or is it similar to the Scorp? Spoon and bowl designs go together I guess. Which of those two tools did you review, Andrew?