Eastman MD-515 Frets too Small -- Any Options?

[jkats]

I've been playing guitar for 45 years, and started playing mandolin a few years ago for fun when my wife started playing fiddle. The mando I started with was a Harmony Monterey A-style, and I realized it was holding me back. I found a used Savannah SF-200 for cheap, and that seemed to do pretty well, but after a fret level and crown (it needed work and I'm a part-time luthier), I realized it was the source of my newly-developed left arm tennis elbow. I refretted it with Fender vintage frets (Dunlop 6230) and that helped.

However, MAS set in (I already had GAS!) and I purchased a used 2008 Eastman MD-515 from an Internet dealer almost a week ago. It arrived early this week, and after playing it for an hour, that tennis elbow flared up. I have to bear down to get it to fret cleanly because the frets are too small. Returning it is not in the cards.

So what are the options? It sounds fine -- I just can't play it as is. I hate to refret a perfectly good instrument (there are small wear divots in a few frets, but nothing requiring a refret), and I'm not even sure I can put larger fret wire on it and still have room for a reasonable fret end bevel before reaching the outermost G and E strings because it's so narrow at the nut.

Has anyone run into this issue, and are there options other than the obvious one -- sell it or trade it? I'm beginning to think I should have bought a Loar 600, which has the larger frets and a wider neck.

[OldSausage]

To my mind, it seems like it may need a technique adjustment rather than a mandolin adjustment. Unless there's something wrong with the neck on the Eastman, and as you're a part time luthier it sounds like that would not be the case, all the Eastmans I've tried have played very easily, as long as the action at the nut and bridge are properly lowered. My advice would be to find a good teacher who can get your mandolin technique on track, and if you can do that, the tension that's causing your tennis elbow should decrease.

[robert.najlis]

I agree with looking at technique. Mike Marshall's DVD on mandolin fundamentals can be helpful for that as well.

[Stephen Perry]

The obvious solution seems to me to be aim-directed shifts and very precise fretting. Slow motion relaxed practice usually gets this grooved within a few months.

[Pete Summers]

However, MAS set in (I already had GAS!) and I purchased a used 2008 Eastman MD-515 from an Internet dealer almost a week ago. It arrived early this week, and after playing it for an hour, that tennis elbow flared up. I have to bear down to get it to fret cleanly because the frets are too small. Returning it is not in the cards.

Sounds like a set-up issue to me. If the strings are proper height at the bridge and nut, the size of the frets shouldn't be an issue, IMO.

[Fretbear]

The nut can be also replaced or re-cut to accommodate a different string spacing.

[Bill James]

When you say "larger" I'm assuming that you mean "taller". I've found that, at least for me, the width of the fret is fairly insignificant. When it comes to the pressure required to fret a clean note, the height is the critical dimension. Anything under .030" and the finger starts pressing on the board which in turn requires more pressure to fret the clean note. For certain people this is less of a problem but if you have tendonitis the fretting pressure is critical. If the frets are .030" in height when new then lose another .005" or more when leveled, crowned and grooved a bit from playing this could be significant for you. If your fingertips are fairly soft then get grooved after playing for a while it can really increase the required string pressure. I have two mandolins, one with frets slightly under .030", the other slightly over .040" and the difference in required string pressure is very significant.

Stew MAC has an .053" by .037" which may work for you if you can keep the bevel to a minimum. Even a bit taller would be better but then you get into wires that are significantly wider. I would just be extra careful to make sure the board is fairly consistent so you don't lose much of the height when you level the frets.

Just my worthless opinion but I've been down the tendonitis road, it's a beatch.

[Steve Ostrander]

it needed work and I'm a part-time luthier), I realized it was the source of my newly-developed left arm tennis elbow. I refretted it with Fender vintage frets (Dunlop 6230) and that helped.

Since you've done it before, why don't you just re-fret the md515?

[robert.najlis]

Good advice there from Bill James. Very good advice. Maybe as you mentioned, the The Loar would be a better choice for you?

[multidon]

My thought is to just try lowering the action at the nut. Seems to me that would be simpler than re-fretting. Cut the grooves a tad deeper and bring those strings down a little closer to the frets. Use feeler gauges to make sure you are no more than .030 above the first fret. Lower it a little more if you want it even closer, some do, but work a little bit at a time. The goal is to make it as close as possible but you don't want a buzzing to develop. I don't know what Eastman's factory set up is like but a lot of manufacturers leave it a tad high to guarantee no buzz with the idea that if the purchaser doesn't like it they can have it adjusted to their liking at the dealer. Once you do that, though, you will never be able to re-fret with taller frets unless you replace the nut also.

[Johnny60]

I, too, have played guitar for around 40 years and am relatively new to mando. I too tried a Savannah which was just dreadful. And I too got tendonitis!

I now have 2 mandolins, neither of them very expensive, but both are great at this stage in my mando playing journey. One is a Kentucky 162 which replaced the crappy Savannah; the other is an Eastman 505 which I fell in love with and I got at a stupidly cheap price. Before you start hacking up the Eastman, here are my own findings regarding switching from guitar to mando, small fretboards (compared to guitars) and tendonitis.

1. Mandolins are MUCH smaller than guitars! When my tendonitis kicked in (nodules on my 1st fretting finger and an inflamed tendon in my left forearm) I went to see the physiotherapist who normally works on my back. Took the mando with me to show her how small it was and how i held it. She told me to stretch the fingers before playing, and at various points throughout the day. Lace the fingers of both hands together then, then face the palms outwards and gently stretch the fingers outwards. She said that the mando is so small that you basically have to cramp your hands up to be able to do some of the chords. So stretching the fingers out really counters this.

2. She also recommended that I stick rubber bands around my fingers and stretch them out under tension. I did this with the band wrapped around the tops of the fingers and thumb, but also with the thumb and individual fingers. It builds strength and, again, is the opposite of "clawing" the hand.

3. She told me to keep playing but not to go at it like a bull at a gate for hours. She also recommended that I keep my forearm at a 90 degree angle to my upper arm, and that the fingers should lay "along" the fretboard to ease some of the bigger chord stretches.

The upshot is that it all calmed down within a few days of doing the exercises. One other thing I've personally found is that the radiused fretboard of the Eastman doesn't tire my fingers as much as the flat fretboard of the Kentucky, but everyone's different.

Please bear in mind that these are MY findings only. You might be different, and feel free to take what I've said with a pinch of salt. But taking time to do some stretches MIGHT be all you need, without resorting to re-fretting your Eastman or even getting rid of it.

Hope this helps,

John

[jkats]

Many thanks to all who've responded, and all are worthwhile suggestions. First, I'll check the setup with the auto feeler gauges. I usually use the Frank Ford method of pressing down between the second and third frets and measuring clearance over the first fret and check it with the StewMac method of stacking feeler gauges to get the nut slot depth uniform, but I'll check the first fret height to hit the .030" specification. I'll also try to work on technique and posture. (It could also be a question of transitioning from Strats, Teles and Les Pauls to the mandolin.) If all else fails, then I'll move on to another mando or to taller (not necessarily "bigger" -- Bill is correct) frets, but I just don't see how I can bevel those fret ends at 35 degrees and still have enough level playing surface given how narrow this neck is, unless I move the strings in.

Thanks again.

[Hobo]

I have an Epiphone MM50, Loar 520 and Loar 400. Just picked up a Eastman MD515. They all play well as far as the frets go. The Loar 400 and the Eastman MD515 are the best sounding of the bunch. I think you have other issues than fret size.

[WrapAround]

Here is another perspective from a full time guitar player/part time mandolin dabbler....

I'm on a quest for a mandolin that I feel comfortable with. I'm not so concerned about having proper mandolin technique since my purpose of playing the instrument is rather practical, which is to be able to get the tracks I need (I write music for a living). I had a Savannah which was set up by a luthier friend and that became loads better (low action, recut nut, stabilize bridge, etc). I had an old Gibson A from the early 1900 and the neck width and shape was pretty comfortable (about 1-3/16) but didn't like it enough to keep it. In both cases, not having the radius on the fretboard and tall frets raised some playability issues.

After looking around that had wide neck width, radius fretboard and modern frets, it appears that MM's MDM-2 is the only game in town at under $1k for new instruments. I've been told that it's not the best sounding mandolin but I'd rather have an instrument that I feel good about playing than one that I need to struggle to play. When recording I always need to EQ the instruments anyway, so that process takes away certain amount of "natural beauty of acoustic instruments". So that's what I'm leaning towards. Another path I'm pursuing is an used Breedlove which may be worth waiting for.