pinky or no pinky?

[Pete Summers]

Heres my first attempt at playing, not quite a week so far, planted pinky and all. I will try to work on not planting and see where it goes but for now this is where I am at.

http://soundcloud.com/shortymack/flop-eared-mule

Frankly, IMO, if you're able to play that well after a week, I think you should be giving playing advice here rather that asking for it.


As for "planting" the pinky, it seems to me some folks equate planting to super gluing your finger to the top of the mandolin, unable to move it if you wish to play closer or further from the bridge. I'm curious as to why that would be a problem. I can't speak for others, but my pinky moves when I move my hand, probably because the two are attached. Curiously, I'm able to plant my pinky or unplant it at will, depending on what I'm playing. And I'm not even very good. Surely this is not a problem for good players.

As for concerns about damage to the finish by planting or brushing your pinky on the top, that is what pick guards (i.e., finger rests) and made for ain't it? In my own preference, though I don't mind an instrument that looks played, though Monroe's is a bit excessive IMO. I cover the surface of both my mandos with thin, clear plastic to keep my fingernail from scratching it. Cheap, easily removed and works and looks good.

[Bertram Henze]

Heres my first attempt at playing, not quite a week so far, planted pinky and all. I will try to work on not planting and see where it goes but for now this is where I am at.

http://soundcloud.com/shortymack/flop-eared-mule

You're not bragging about your modesty, are you?

[shortymack]

Not bragging at all, sorry if I come across that way. Just am really stoked to be able to finally have a mandolin. Ive been wanting one since I joined last year. Thanks for taking the time to listen and for your comments. The pick angle is something I will work on for sure! Thanks again.

[Astro]

Wow, thats after one week ?

I quit.

Sounds great. I've spent most of my first week working on chords. Now I can change from 4 finger D to 4 finger A in just under 45 seconds. I just played Lay Down Sally. A to D and back several times to an occasional E. Took me about an hour and a half. Sally laid down and fell into a coma.

[Axeman]

I just watched the way I play different chords, notes, and rhythms and found myself doing everything except planting my pinky. I think it's because I am a guitar player first. So I tried planting my pinky to see how it feels and I can tell it gives a sense of precision and springiness to a rapid picking but it feels strange and off-balanced to me. I use the pinky side of my hand as a counterweight to the pick side. I would say to do what works best for you. Your muscles develop to work the way you want them to anyway.

Edit: After listening to your track I can see that you are also a guitar player branching out into mandolin. Do you plant your pinky on the guitar? I never did. Some guitar players do. I will use my pinky to find the #1 string for positioning sense on the guitar but not for leverage or balance.

[brunello97]

Los Pinkys, from my hometown, Austin, Texas.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lospinkys/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTnq9xPwD8o

Mick

[Buck]

I don't "plant" in the sense that I maintain consistent firm contact with the top, but I do touch the top (or pick guard if the mando has one) as a point of reference. I do it on guitar too. It was never an intentional thing, but it has become a part of my playing. I have no intention of changing because I don't see it as a problem.

[dasspunk]

My advice is: try the best you can to NOT plant your pinky. If your best effort fails, plant away.

FWIW, I would think one's best effort for such a task would require somewhere between two months and two years

[hank]

Shortymack the benifit of years of guitar shows as several have commented but on the down side some of us guitar players bring poor left hand technique that later can cause cramping and pain if you play often. I won't go into detail about correct left hand technique(there is plenty of training info to show you that)but if you are playing a lot of the time with your thumb behind the neck like playing a bar chord on guitar I think it would be wise to try and break this habit as soon as possible. I had to use a mirror and a lot of conscious effort to correct this old habit. I know this is off topic but felt it important to point this out to you early on in your mandolin training.

[shortymack]

Astro, you made me laugh hard with 'sally laid down and fell into a coma". Too funny, thanks and keep up doing what youre doing!

Edit: After listening to your track I can see that you are also a guitar player branching out into mandolin. Do you plant your pinky on the guitar? I never did. Some guitar players do. I will use my pinky to find the #1 string for positioning sense on the guitar but not for leverage or balance.

Yea I do it on guitar and the main reason why it has translated to mandolin.

My advice is: try the best you can to NOT plant your pinky. If your best effort fails, plant away.

FWIW, I would think one's best effort for such a task would require somewhere between two months and two years

Im gonna try my best.

Shortymack the benifit of years of guitar shows as several have commented but on the down side some of us guitar players bring poor left hand technique that later can cause cramping and pain if you play often. I won't go into detail about correct left hand technique(there is plenty of training info to show you that)but if you are playing a lot of the time with your thumb behind the neck like playing a bar chord on guitar I think it would be wise to try and break this habit as soon as possible. I had to use a mirror and a lot of conscious effort to correct this old habit. I know this is off topic but felt it important to point this out to you early on in your mandolin training.

Hank, your post is timely indeed. Yesterday I started to feel my left index finger hurting in places it never has. Today when I woke up it was even worse. I think you nailed it on the head. The good things about playing guitar for a long time has translated to mando and unfortunately so has the bad. My left hand position has me more concerned than my pinky planting right now actually, my pinky doesnt hurt like that, but it is none the less still a bad habit in itself. I need to focus on how I grip the neck (like Mike Marshall suggested in the video earlier in the thread). Here I thought I would have a seem less transition to mandolin playing but thats what happens when you step up to the plate expecting a fast ball and the breaking pitch buckles the knees. I DO NOT want to feel any pain in my fingers/hands so this is a must fix. Thanks.

[ralph johansson]

Sometimes I plant, sometimes I don't, to me it just depends on the song, so just do what YOU have to do, just play and enjoy, don't worry about other peoples style, play yours, and as has been said Steffey, Hull, and others, including Skaggs plant, I'm not gonna tell them they shouldn't, or that they are wrong, if you can play without it go for it I'd say it's better, but if you have to go for it...just play, and there is one other mandolin player that planted quite a bit, but I can't think of who it was....oh yeah, Bill Monroe, I will say it did ware his finish a little, but I don't think he cared,

There are lots of videos of Monroe on YouTube and I see no evidence of planting in any of them. He played with a loosely curled hand and a very loose wrist and probably touched the top occasionally, especially when sliding his hand towards the fretboard for chopping. Planting may stain the top, but not scratch it.

"Do whatever works for you" is extremeley poor advice to a beginner - when and how does he know? And, as far as I can see, nobody asks whether the TS uses a pickguard or not. Planting on a guard can be very limiting. And planting without one may - I say: may - lead to the pick dipping too deeply.

[Denny Gies]

At a workshop a few years ago, Mike Compton criticized anyone who let any part of their picking hand touch the top or bridge of the mandolin. His theory is that any contact by the hand diminishes the responsiveness of the top while playing. Personally I can't get to the point where my right palm does not lightly touch the bridge. But then, I can't play like Mike.

[JeffD]

At a workshop a few years ago, Mike Compton criticized anyone who let any part of their picking hand touch the top or bridge of the mandolin. His theory is that any contact by the hand diminishes the responsiveness of the top while playing. .

With all do respect to Mike, I doubt it makes a measurable difference.

Play wonderfully, anyway you can, and nobody will say nuthin.

[GTison]

I thought you were talking about using your left pinky. By all means do so. But as for planting the right pinky. I don't but Ronnie McCoury does. He is faster than Compton ( ask Mike). They both are top players of the mandolin.

[Mandolin Mick]

I never do, but many of the greats do. Here's a pic I took of Bobby O who has a place worn out from his pinky ...

[ralph johansson]

I thought you were talking about using your left pinky. By all means do so. But as for planting the right pinky. I don't but Ronnie McCoury does. He is faster than Compton ( ask Mike). They both are top players of the mandolin.

The Stangeland survey describes his technique as very open hand, fingers touching the top. Touching is not planting and that's not what it looks like to me.


The same goes for Bobby Osborne; judging from the picture his pinky touches the top and follows the motion of the hand.

[Timmando]

Great post! I am in the transition also coming from guitar where I planted my pinkie. I started on mando planting my pinkie, took a lesson from a local guy who said that was good. Then I bought Chris Thiles dvd and he said no planting...and I wouldn't argue with him on that point. But, one of the other top players, Steffey, plants and also doesn't use his pinkie on his left hand for fretting...and he is an unbelievably fast, clean player. So..I am confused at this time. I am trying not to plant, but sometimes I do. When I chop, no plant needed. When I flatpick, the plant seems to help, but sometimes it is not needed...so...still in transition. On another point, why don't mandos have a pickguard like a guitar?

[shortymack]

A month into playing and I still have to consciously think about not planting my pinky. Just like you Tim...sometimes I do , sometimes I dont. At this point I am focusing more on my left hand technique it seems. Maybe I will be one of those who does it sometmes and not others depending on what I am playing and if thats the case so be it. In the meantime I am still trying not to do it. Rome wasnt planted in a day.

RE PG's; Some mandoilins do have a pick guard (especially the older ones) and as I learned from a post earlier supposedly they are actually meant as a platform for the planters.

[CES]

For the record, at least in my head I did get the mathematics correct. One out of four fingers = 25%

Not that it matters in the least, of course!


ron

Anatomically, as taught in medical school, the thumb is considered the first finger...at this point, jokes surrounding finger number 3 are bouncing around my head

I continue to struggle a bit with the plant/not plant issue. I came to mando after guitar and banjo, and tend to fingerpick mainly with just three fingers (thumb, index, middle) even on guitar, though I will throw the 4th and 5th fingers in if necessary for the song. I've really been working on developing a floating right hand on mandolin and guitar, and have gotten much better with not using my pinky as a guide, or point of reference, if you will, on mandolin (as I don't really plant it in one spot). I still have trouble locating correctly if I float on guitar (and I have a couple of different nut widths/string spacings to boot), and it's a little more difficult to use the Marshall bridge rest technique on flattop guitar. (Hmmm, maybe that's an excuse to get an archtop?) So, I'm trying not to use my pinky as a position guide, and having pretty decent results on mando. But, I tend to utilize both approaches depending on the tune I'm playing. BTW, even when I'm using the pinky as a guide, it comes off the top for tremolo and strumming/chopping.

The muscle memory confusion gets even worse when I go through "banjo-centric" periods, which do still pop up, despite the negative feedback from my wife and kids

OP, if you decide to eliminate the plant, give it a good 30-60 days before you get frustrated...you'll be able to change your technique (even if you still play guitar with a plant), it just takes time...

EDIT: OK, so read the rest of the thread...OP, nice job on the Flop-Eared Mule, and yeah, fretting hand technique is very different...heard someone describe holding the mando as more akin to holding the violin, which makes sense to me and feels much more ergonomically correct. David's advice about pick angle is spot on, at least per John McGann, Thile/Critter, and a couple of others I've seen discuss the issue. FWIW, I've been playing a couple of years but am still a beginner in my mind. I agree in theory with Compton's advice to avoid touching the bridge/soundboard completely, but have yet to achieve that stage of enlightenment (and probably never will, though I admire the man's playing immensely!)...good luck, man!

[mandroid]

Not really planted, On the finger rest my pinkie is often curled up and the fingernail,
glides over the surface.

I usually have to write with my writing hand on the paper, too

[hank]

Since participating in this thread I've been more conscious of what's going on with my right hand. It turns out I'm able to leave my fingers off the finger rest without alot of extra mistakes as long as I don't tremolo with any of my big triangle picks. The more rounded Dog shaped picks are more forgiving to me and tend to stay more on top of the string so I can tremolo with them without top contact but I much prefer my triangle picks both in feel and tone. They are more pointed and thinner at the tips and seem to require a very loose grip with the tip depth being controlled more precisely. I still prefer touching the rest when I need more depth control of my right hand but for those who don't and are struggling with it try rotating your pick to a more rounded point. While I was experimenting with some of my older rounded picks I also noticed the bevel really changed how the pick glided over the strings. The more rounded bevel seemed to push the pick back away from strings in a way that I just couldn't get used too. Some great players really like the round shape with the round bevel but it seemed to require me to hold the pick tighter with more downward effort to push it thru the strings.

[Randi Gormley]

Interesting. I switched picks from a larger guitar pick to a smaller, jazz mando type pick and found my wrist more inclined to graze the top of the bridge than before.
I'm self-taught, and the Mel Bay book specified not to plant the hand, so I didn't for years. A teacher seemed surprised that I didn't plant for tremolo, and I began doing that ... I guess I'm susceptible to suggestion. I would say that consistency is important if you're going to deliberately choose one method over another. As the song says, "Love may be strong, but a habit is stronger."

[ralph johansson]

A month into playing and I still have to consciously think about not planting my pinky. Just like you Tim...sometimes I do , sometimes I dont. At this point I am focusing more on my left hand technique it seems. Maybe I will be one of those who does it sometmes and not others depending on what I am playing and if thats the case so be it. In the meantime I am still trying not to do it. Rome wasnt planted in a day.

RE PG's; Some mandoilins do have a pick guard (especially the older ones) and as I learned from a post earlier supposedly they are actually meant as a platform for the planters.

There seems to be wide-spread confusion over the meaning of the word "plant". According to my dictionary, to plant is to "place firmly or forcibly", not just "touch". The standard technique on a pickguard is not planting at all but brushing with a loosely curled hand. It's a very relaxed and natural technique.

Good examples of this technique are David Grisman and Don Stiernberg. Lots of guitarists play that way too, on flat tops or archtops with elevated guards. Exceptions are rare; the late Butch Baldassari used to extend his pinky and place it against the guard for tremolo. Evan Marshall does something similar to this, in a somewhat oblique fashion.

Playing with a completely free right hand is extremely rare; in fact all the players listed in Stangeland's survey all touch some part of the mandolin with some part of the right hand.