Difference between early Lyon & Healys vs. "Washburn"/later L&H

**shiloh** · Jul-10-2012, 11:39pm

Hi all,
As many of you know I've been looking for a Lyon & Healy carved (not bowl back) mandolin. I definitely need the 13" scale.
I've found at least two for sale recently. One is circa the '20s and has the vulcanized rubber strip/stripe down the back of the neck. The other is from the mid '30s and claims to have the Washburn "laminated mahogany" neck (the words of the seller). Both are Style As.

I'd appreciate hearing from those of you who own a L&H, or who might be inclined to be an historian on the subject. I've read tons of stuff on the internet, but could someone please advise me on important details such as any tonal differences between the earlier L&Hs vs. the later ones, or insights as to whether the Washburn from the '30s is superior (or inferior) to the earlier mandolins? Any particular failure points to earlier or later mandolins? Tuner(s) good or bad? Workmanship?

Both of these instruments have a crack in the back (repaired). Asking price is similar for each one.

Thanks so much..

Jill

**Jim Garber** · Jul-11-2012, 8:07am

I don't have my Washburn book handy but I highly recommend you get a copy. I would think the answers to details would be in there.

Many people make the mistake: that is not vulcanized rubber -- L&H called it vulcanized fibre, which is a cellulose-based plastic invented around mid-19th century. It is pretty close to bakelite in consistency. More about vulcanized fibre here.

I could be wrong, but I didn't think the L&H carved line was even available into the 1930s. And i am not so sure about the laminated mahogany neck. By then the Tonk Brothers had taken over the company. I would compare the two in terms of condition and how they play, if possible. My gut would be to go for the 1920s one, all things being equal.

**brunello97** · Jul-11-2012, 9:34am

Jill, I'm sure we'd all love to see a photo of the '30s mandolin if you have any available.

Jim, Keef has a catalog page in his book (pg 164 in my edition) that shows a Tonk Bros. Washburn "Deluxe" model which looks like the profile of the asymmetrical '20s L+H A. The copy says mahogany neck. His caption reads "Mandolin line, 1939" and his listing suggests they were marketed from '35-'40. Price: $135. ($2,264 in 2012 terms.)

Very interesting.

Mick

Jill, here's a link to the Washburn book Jim referenced.

Washburn: Prewar Instrument Styles

**Jim Garber** · Jul-11-2012, 9:45am

I would think that the 1930s L&Hs A, B, C lines were pretty rare. For one thing the mandolin orchestra craze was long gone at that time. L&H was not what it was in the early days, a power house manufacturing and retailing giant.

**Eugene** · Jul-11-2012, 10:41am

I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been offered, Jill. I would tend to agree with Jim that, all else equal, I would likely favor the '20s piece. ...Although I have personally never handled a carved L&H/Tonk from as late as the '30s. I am also keen for a report on and visuals of wherever your search happens to culminate.

**shiloh** · Jul-11-2012, 10:51am

Hi guys,

Jim, I did a lot of reading last night through my files and I'm inclined to agree with you. In my research it was suggested that the quality of the later-years (in the 30s, and during the reign of the Tonk Bros.) was not quite the same as the earlier L&Hs. I'm not sure how to add a hyperlink, but here is the link to the 30s Washburn I'm referring to. http://www.retrofret.com/products.as...D=4995&CartID=
The older L&H which I'm looking at is currently at an asking price of $4,250 including the original case and the custom Calton case. All original parts. The 30s L&H (link posted above) is asking $3,250 so that's a big spread.

Jill

**brunello97** · Jul-11-2012, 10:55am

Originally Posted by Jim Garber

I would think that the 1930s L&Hs A, B, C lines were pretty rare. For one thing the mandolin orchestra craze was long gone at that time. L&H was not what it was in the early days, a power house manufacturing and retailing giant.

In the appendix in Keef's book, he lists 'production totals…based on serialization data' for the 1935-40 era as being 300 total, 60 per year. The text implies that he is referring to A-C models, but doesn't reference the Washburn versions of these specifically. Not sure if the 'serialization' includes the non-carved top Tonk/Washburn mandolins as well.

He concludes:

"It is likely that in spite of the various mandolin styles advertised in the Washburn section of the Tonk Bros. catalogs throughout the 1930s, actual sales must have been marginal during this period as only a few mandolins from this period have surfaced."

Mick

Ah, Jill, it seems you posted a link to images of the 5283 while I was typing. Thanks! Here is an undated Washburn A with what appears to be a modified or replacement pick guard and also an image of the Washburn from the RetroFret site for thread posterity.

**shiloh** · Jul-11-2012, 11:00am

BTW, I did order the Washburn book yesterday :-)

Jill

**Jim Garber** · Jul-11-2012, 11:16am

Jill: I don't know how much of a rush you are in, but it is likely that I will be down at Retrofret within the next week or two. The owner is a good friend of mine but I would be glad to take a look at that one and let you know my honest opinion. I have played plenty of L&Hs over the years. The Retrofret one is priced that way because it is missing the pickguard. Generally the other price you quoted is more in line with std retail.

**BradKlein** · Jul-11-2012, 11:36am

For a big purchase like this, you might budget an extra $100, try them both, and return the one that is not your favorite. That is, if both are from reputable dealers. You can let them know what you're doing and ask about insurance and shipping, et c. to minimize risk, etc.

I just don't think it's possible to get meaningful advice on the particular question you've asked, even from the very informed folks here at the Cafe.

**shiloh** · Jul-11-2012, 2:17pm

Hi Jim,
I'm not in a big rush. I'd rather find the right L&H for me.... It's so difficult without playing them all. One thing for sure, I'd hate to buy a L&H mandolin and find out it needs a lot of money to bring it up to playable standard. I have a left hand injury so I'm eager to have the shorter scale, but I also need a low action. Would hate to invest over $3,000 and find out I'd need to do a refret, neck-set, etc. I have a wonderful luthier here who would be checking out the mandolin while I have it on trial.

If I don't buy something soon, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the L&H at RetroFret. Glad to know you know the owner and they are a good company.

Brad, unfortunately I do not have the funds to buy both mandolins simultaneously, allowing me to try them side-by-side. That would be wonderful!

Jill

**K. WONG** · Jul-12-2012, 7:30pm

Not only the pick guard, the Washburn does not have the knee brace neither. The L&H A circa '20 should have the knee brace. Do you have the picture and serial number of that L&H?

**Jim Nollman** · Jul-12-2012, 10:40pm

For what it's worth (and for about the same amount of money) you might also do a bit of research on the few available L&H copies built by some of the luthiers who chime in to the Cafe.You can check out one of these instruments, by Will Hirsch in the "eye candy" section of the cafe. I've seen a few other modern takes on this classic shape, and they are truly magnificent. Maybe not possessed of the same vintage cachet, but likely to be great sounding instruments. And it's not minor thing to have a working luthier standing behind his/her instrument, if anything goes wrong.

About 5 years back i was seriously searching for an asymmetrical L&H without the head scroll. Then I saw a for-sale BRW "3 point", which shows a lot of the same design ideas as the asymmetrical L&H, plus some modern (and useful) additions. I asked the seller if i might try it for a week. The first time I played it I decided to buy it. I've never looked back. I play mostly traditional fiddle tunes.

As a long shot, I also recommend taking a look at the mandolins built by Allen Beardsell from Toronto. Maybe, not that classic L&H shape, but with some of the same acoustic properties. But be aware, the last time I heard from Allen, he was dealing with a serious illness and had stopped building.

Anyway, I offer this as just another suggestion. Good luck with your search. It's great fun.

**Jim Garber** · Jul-13-2012, 7:47am

I am sure that many of the modern versions of the Lyon & Healy carved mandolins are perfectly nice instruments in themselves but I have a feeling that the tonal qualities may be more modern and may just resemble other mandolins of that same maker more than the orignal L&Hs. Just because they resemble an L&H does not necessarily mean they sound and play like the originals. The internal workings (braces etc) may be quite different. Just my curmudgeonly 2 cents...

**shiloh** · Jul-13-2012, 1:50pm

Jim N. - nice interpretation/arrangement of Swinging on a Gate.
I tend to agree a bit with Jim G - the older instruments can (generally) have just a different tone than the modern ones. I haven't ruled out commissioning a L&H copy, but would prefer finding an older one. Having said that, I haven't even played one before so there is always the possibility that my hand injury will dictate what instrument I truly like :-) But I'm optimistic that the 13" classical scale will be quite beneficial.

I have an acquaintance who recently purchased a Style C from the '20s which, unfortunately, had some strange mods done to it (heavy lacquer, glued-on bridge, banjo frets) but in spite of all that the mandolin really sounds wonderful! (not to mention she plays well).

My finances are limited so unfortunately I cannot run out and buy the most expensive L&H - thus I was trying to find a Style B (and no thanks to the stock market LOL). But I'm confident that it will all work out eventually. The idea is that I will find the right mandolin for me, and will keep it and enjoy it for the long run. No more buying and selling!

Jill

**hank** · Jul-13-2012, 1:56pm

You've got a nice collection listed maybe you could work up a trade with one or more of them and hold on to most of your funds.

**Jim Garber** · Jul-13-2012, 2:23pm

There is this style C in the classifieds (at least in your state) and it sounds like it would be a possibility and less than the 30s A.

**jmkatcher** · Jul-13-2012, 3:09pm

Aren't the style Cs always longer scale?

**Jim Nollman** · Jul-13-2012, 5:51pm

that L&H in the classifieds looks mighty well cared for.

**Bob A** · Jul-19-2012, 8:03pm

Regarding date of mfr, I lack information. Insofar as knee braces are concerned, I would personally tend toward brace-free examples, if only for the increased strength and integrity of a rib without a hole in it. But needs must when the Devil drives, though I've never quite understood the phrase; if you need the knee doohickey, go for it.

As far as action is concerned, I've had two L&H instruments, and both had decent reasonably low action. Of course, so long as the top integrity is assured, action can be adjusted via bridge height.\

It's sort of axiomatic that the L&H sound is carried across the line; mine were B (14") and asym A(13"), and they both had similar, and identifiable, sonority. Like the better Italian bowlbacks, the sound and construction was usually optimised, with only materials and ornamentation pushing the price point.

That said, of course an instrument must be experienced in hand to be appreciated for what it is. I was perhaps unfortunate in that when I picked up my A and played it a bit, I was more or less overcome, to the point that I neglected to haggle over the price - a shameful lapse that troubles me to this day, but reflective of my feeling toward the instrument in question. They are not so commonplace as to be easily chosen, but there always seems to be a few around.

Being rather on the vintage side my ownself, and more so daily, I tend to the position that older is better; working musicians of my acquaintance are divided on the topic, but are generally inclined to accept a newer model as being less finicky and less likely therefore to need repairs and general upkeep. I also suspect that older examples are cheaper than new; the L&H is not an easy object to replicate, and requires both skill and time to render properly, which of course translates into increased cost.

I doubt that I've contributed much toward the solution of your problem, but I note that at least one of the linked instruments above has been sold, so perhaps the marketplace is acting to help resolve your dilemma. At any rate, I'd avoid like the pox any old instrument that has had its bridge glued down, or overcoated with who knows what sort of varnish. (Unless it was ridiculously cheap, and sounded great. I can be had, in the proper improper circumstance).

Good luck to you. If you weren't on the wrong side of the world, I'd be pleased to let you play with my toys.

**JeffD** · Jul-19-2012, 8:50pm

The L&H assymetrical two point with fiddle head scroll (5283) was my hope and dream for ten years. Then just last year one came available on the classifieds and I jumped on it. I had to put off getting new tires to get it, but I did it.

It was and is a love to play.

Mine had the neck reset many many years before I got it, and it was done by a professional because it can't be detected. Apparently this is not uncommon, at least so I hear.

I waited 10 years and it was worth every minute.

**JeffD** · Jul-23-2012, 1:25pm

There's a nice looking one up on ebay. Woo hoo!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...=350583004903+

**Eugene** · Jul-24-2012, 8:43am

Ha! I love that there is a Pettine "small" plectrum among the case flotsam.

**brunello97** · Jul-24-2012, 9:22am

Beautiful set of photos on that Washburn ebay ad, Jeff. I haven't seen enough of these in person to know how the detailing stacks up against the L+H branded ones, but the carving looks quite good to my eye. Check the views where it shows the recurve on the top. That is seriously nice work. A link to the 'builders' thread would probably be appreciated.

Probably it is just my browser but I can't through on your link so I am posting a backup, jic.

1925 LYON & HEALY WASHBURN 5283 STYLE A

Mick

**BradKlein** · Jul-24-2012, 9:46am

The craquelure on that mandolin is different than I've ever seen on an L&H. They applied such a fine thin finish, the best of any American mandolin I think, that I wonder if this one has been oversprayed. Either that or it must have been exposed to some temperature shock, but would the varnish/shellac finish on these things seems unlikely to check that way?

It may make no functional difference to the instrument if it is the original finish. Plenty of Gibson guitars look just like that without harm. But Gibson was not nearly so careful in their later guitar finishing as L&H was 30 years earlier.