Diagnosis a problem (fret issue?)

[zeeku777]

Hello everyone,

I have my Loar LM-600 here, with a concerning little issue I've been trying to research to no avail.

On the high E strings as I travel up the neck, the first of the two strings will be fine and stay in tune with each new fret. But the second of the two will fall flat after about the 5th fret. As far as my ears are concerned this problem hasn't been there until today, so I'm a little puzzled as to what it could be.

Better way of explaining it -

E frets.- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th....
course 1.- F., F#., G., G#., A., A#., B.,
course 2.- F., F#., G., G# tiny bit flat, A even flatter, A# flatter still...


Now by flat I mean in cents, but its really enough to make it sound 'cold' or just plain off when listening to a melody played up the neck.


Any ideas? I ran into a few problems like this online, and changing the strings was a offered cure?

Thanks for any help you can give!


(I'm the poster who had issues with an online dealer awhile ago, but this mandolin came straight from The Loar, not the shady dealer. On top of that, it has been perfect up until I noticed this today)

[Pribar]

Ok if I am reading you right you are having problems with only a single string?, if that is the case change your strings, they are cheap and its the easy way to cover several bases at once, when you change your strings use a pencil to lay a bit of graphite into the nut and bridge slots (for lube to keep the strings from binding) and check the slots for any obstructions or deforming, if there is a problem with the nut you can either have a pro make you a new one or use one of the many online sources to show you how to do it yourself. while you have the strings off check the tuners to see if the one that tunes your problem string is showing any abnormal movement or wear.
If none of the above fixes your problem then its time to take it to a pro.

[billhay4]

I read it that he has problems with both E strings. Sounds like an intonation problem to me. Google this for a lot of information, but it's an easy fix that you can do yourself.
Bill

[Pribar]

I read it that he has problems with both E strings. Sounds like an intonation problem to me. Google this for a lot of information, but it's an easy fix that you can do yourself.
Bill

Upon rereading it I think you are right, my cognitive abilities are greatly impaired today as I spent last night celebrating a friends 60th birthday, much lubrication was consumed

[multidon]

Your action may be slightly different for each of the 2 strings. If one is even a little off from the other they would intonate differently down the neck. Try checking the action of each separately with feeler gauges and if they are different adjust the depths of the bridge slots accordingly.

[robster]

Zeek,

Your description contradicts itself, so I'll probably provide more advice than you really need, but here goes. An 8-string mandolin has four pairs of strings, referred to as courses. Each course is tuned to a different pitch: E-A-D-G (from highest pitch to lowest pitch). When strings go sharp or flat as you go up the fretboard, you have an intonation issue, which is easily fixable with the typical "floating bridge." This means the bridge is not glued in one place, like a guitar. Some mandolins do indeed have a fixed bridge and can be intonated as you will see below.

Start by setting the intonation of the mandolin. Tune each string to pitch, then check it by fretting it at the 12th fret and checking pitch with your tuner. If the strings are flat at the 12th fret, move the bridge/saddle forward (closer to the fretboard). If they are sharp, move the bridge/saddle back toward the tailpiece.

Once intonated, if you have pitch problems with just one course of strings, (or more rarely, just one string), then you get out a small file or sandpaper and move the inflection point on the bridge/saddle forward or backward by sanding or filing. Very small changes will have big results, so take your time and take it easy.

That should do it. If you want my free ebook on how to set up a mandolin, just email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com and I'll send it (free to all mandolincafe members).

Good luck!

Rob

[billhay4]

Pribar,
Congratulations on making is so far. A well lubricated engine runs better.
On the above problem, I'd check the basic intonation first. It's simple. If the notes are the same on the open string and the 12th fret (one octave apart), the intonation is correct. Do the G and E strings first, then the interior strings. It's rare that all will be correctly intonated. For corrections, see Google.
Also, look to see that your bridge has not slanted toward the back or front of the instrument. This will throw the intonation off and is often the result of a poorly fitted bridge. This is a bit more difficult to fix.
Bill

[Tom Wright]

I get this effect on my Buchanan as the E strings get played out. With some really worn-in pairs the inner string will play very flat to the outer one on the high frets. I test fingering inequality by using a pencil or capo to ensure I am fretting without some kind of uneven pressure. The effect is greatest on the last few frets. When I put on a new pair the problem evaporates.

To explain this effect I think we have to look at probable unequal picking damage. If the inner string gets most of the picking impulse it may get stretched out more, and be in effect a thinner string than when first put on. This would lead to playing flat compared to its proper intonation settings when new. This cannot be a nut issue, since that would be obvious on the low frets and trivial on high ones. Action difference would not be enough to explain it, either, and is not present on my Buchanan with its solid bone bridge saddle lacking slots.

Whatever the cause, I also experience it and it goes away with a new pair. I still have to control finger angle and pressure to insure good pair intonation, but with old strings it is impossible to adequately compensate.

[Dale Ludewig]

I agree with Tom. Change your strings. If it was a nut or bridge issue, it's very unlikely that it would suddenly appear, assuming everything else is the same.

[Jim Hilburn]

I had this problem years ago when I didn't understand mandolin setup as well as I do now. I would make the E pair very close together and that seemed to cause the problem, the inside string would get depressed more than the outside one. When you have a little space between the strings they seem to get depressed more evenly. I can't say that's the problem your having but something to be aware of.

[HoGo]

Since the problem came suddenly, I guess it may be just bridge leaning forward a bit. If one slot is cut at angle towards tailpiece as it should and other is closer to parallel with playing string, when bridge leans forward one contact point is at edge of bridge facing nut and other on the edge facing tailpiece thus resulting into unequal string length. This often gets overlooked and one often just changes strings (and typically tweaks bridge position) and problem seems to be gone and the strings are believed to be the cause.

[Pete Summers]

Hello everyone,

I have my Loar LM-600 here, with a concerning little issue I've been trying to research to no avail.

On the high E strings as I travel up the neck, the first of the two strings will be fine and stay in tune with each new fret. But the second of the two will fall flat after about the 5th fret. As far as my ears are concerned this problem hasn't been there until today, so I'm a little puzzled as to what it could be.

Better way of explaining it -

E frets.- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th....
course 1.- F., F#., G., G#., A., A#., B.,
course 2.- F., F#., G., G# tiny bit flat, A even flatter, A# flatter still...

I don't see how you can construe that he is saying both E strings are a problem? Doesn't he say clearly that the first string of the E course is fine going up the fretboard, but that the second string of that course (i.e., the lower string) goes slightly flat at G# (6th fret an up)?

In which case, I would suspect either a worn E string, possibly with a nick in it, or other flaw, or, uneven frets. As the first option seems much more likely IMO, I'd second (or third) the advise to change strings.

[Grommet]

OP does state that only one of the E pair is affected, and only at frets 4 and above. Nut slots can wear so I would suggest checking to see if the bottoms of the two slots are of equal depth. This and changing strings as previously suggested.

Scott

[zeeku777]

Haha, sorry for the confusion everyone!

I did in fact mean that only ONE of the high E strings was the problem! Upon a closer look, it seems like the problem E string in question is just a tiny bit higher off the fret board than the other. I guess with all your help I'm assuming it is a worn string and maybe some nut/bridge business. So I'm about to replace the strings/look everything over and see if it helps! Hopefully it will (and considering the problem just sorta popped up a day ago, I think it should solve it)

(and thanks pribar for the graphite lube idea, I'll definitely roll with it!)


Thanks a ton everyone who helped out! I'll fill you in when I'm back online in a day or two!

[bmac]

A mando does not automaticly go out of tune on one string without a a good reason. You have posted 30 times on this site so I assume the mandolin is new to you and you are relatively inexperienced on mandolin. Decondly it never just pops out of tune without a very good reason It is likely that you or someone else has been fussing with it without knowing anything about your mandolin... Was it set up by a qualified luthier before or after purchace???? If bought from a mail order discounter it is rarely playable when you receive it and you simply have to bite the bullet and have it set up professionally or learn to do it yourself, but it sounds like you should have it done professionally first and then learn to do it yourself. So if it is new and you are inexperienced then consider a professional settup.

Have you changed the strings yourself??? if so suspect a misplaced bridge. again, there is a right way and a wrong way.

I'll just mention tw0 problems found sometimes on poorly set up mandolins and that it nut adjustment... Mandolinscomign from the factory have terrible or no set up at all. and a Bridk and morter seller will do the settup before selling it... A discounter will not and cannot do proper adjustment..... Simple as that!!!!

Bridge adjustmemnt and position... the bridge most be in exact position on your mandolin.... Terribly important!!!!

It is possiblt to position your bridge backwqrds whih make proper intonation impossible.... If you removed your bridge suspect this. but position is most lilkely...

Bridge hight must be correct or it will be impossible to get good intonation. Information for basic mandolin sett up can be found in Frets.com or other sites... but before you try self-diafgnosis read about set up until you understand it. And then do it or have a qualified luthier do it,,, Money well spent.
Extremely important to clean playing and intonation.

[Ken Willms]

I had the same problen a few years ago and found that after using a digital micrometer that the strings were not the same size. I changed the strings and everthing waqs fine. I called Elderly instruments and they sent me a new set of strings.

[bmac]

On my first mandolin, purchased new at roughly the same price as yours. I began obcessing on intonation to the point wher I finally took the mandolin to a repair person who diddled with it for $60 if I recall.. He told me that it was in fact pretty good and well adjusted when purchased from the reputable dealer. I eventually wrote off the $60 to a case of "buyers panic" as I was seeing problems which weren't really there... I am not saying you don't have real problems but sometimes over-concern magnifies them. The first things I would work on is the nut and bridge, in that order. But first you have to determine whether there are real problems. If purchased from a discount dealer your instrument is likely poorly set up, if set up at all.
The fact that you have a "The Loar" means very little if it isn't set up well.

[zeeku777]

Problem solved!

I put on the new strings yesterday. After taking the old ones off it looked like the bridge and nut were both fine. So, I pined it on a worn string (they were decently old anyways) and then redid the E Strings first to test the problem, and after cleaning the bridge and the nut for good measure and testing it, it all came out fine!

(so regardless of what it was, with a good clean it was fixed)

Thanks for the advice everyone! (I also did the little bit of graphite-'lube' trick for good measure!)

[bmac]

A worn string will not cause the problem you described. Some folks rarely if ever change strings and it doesn't cause the problem you described... A string can go "dead" but that doesn't mean it will go off pitch when plucked along with the other corresponding string. the graphite is probably a good idea... Another thing I might suggest is that when tuning any given string make sure that the last adjustment in fine tuning the string is to tighten that string. In other words bring it "up to pitch" not "down to pitch". That way no string will hang up from a badly cut nut. This used to be standard advice in tuning stringed instruments but I have seen very little mention of this technique in recent years... Maybe it works better with guitars(???).

[Tom Wright]

A worn string will not cause the problem you described...

As a string stretches with use, it gets thinner, and less stiff due to metal fatigue. (The latter may be the larger effect.) If the uphill string of a pair gets more slamming from the pick, I can believe it will tend to stretch more and get more retuning. A thinner, more flexible string will play flat compared to its proper bridge position, and mainly will play flat compared to a pair member that did not stretch as much.

In any case, I get the same problem as the poster, and it goes away with a new pair. Action and nut issues cannot cause the described problem. Nut issues show up in the lowest frets, and the action difference would need to be large. My Buchanan has zero action difference with its plain saddle in a pin bridge, and the nut is perfect. So what else could cause the result that goes away with a new pair? I figure it has to be uneven stretching of the pair, with one getting more mechanical strain, typically the inner one that sees the pick on those hard downstrokes.

[modon]

I've been using a product called 'Evapo-Rust'. Its a solution claimed to be non toxic, no fumes, biodegradable, bla bla bla, and it works pretty good! I use it on antique clock parts that have picked up rust. I immerse the part in the solution, wait a while depending on how rusted the part is. If you leave the part in too long, it comes out blackened like a black oxide finish, but it buffs off easily. This stuff works best for rusted steel parts.
Now for tarnished brass, my favorite is 'NeverDull', a cotton batting with some chemical or other. It shines brass (unlaquered) very nicely, leaving a light patina. I use this stuff routinely on the tailpiece plate of my old Gibson A model.