Mike Marshall's Loar

**mandobassman** · Jul-09-2012, 10:27pm

Originally Posted by jhduncan

Just my opinion, but I think the "loar sound/tone/magicality" has been vastly overstated and hyped by people and this forum in particular...
For true players who love that sound (whatever it might be) they are going to do whatever they want to make things playable. And they should, I think.

I couldn't agree more with John here. There seems to be this sense that just because it has "Lloyd Loar" on the label, that it automatically has this magic tone that others can't achieve. Yes, there are many Loars that have that magic, but there are many others that are not any better than, and many that are not as good as what the top luthiers today are producing, IMO.
As far as alterations are concerned, the Loars that we hear many professional players using today are using these instruments as a tool for the music they are trying to produce. There is no reason why they shouldn't modify the instrument in any way they need to to produce the best tone and playability possible. They're not interested in re-sale value. They'll probably play that instrument the rest of their careers. And even if someone like Marshall decided to sell his, who wouldn't pay top dollar for a Loar owned by Mike Marshall? I don't think the modifications will hurt any.

**mtucker** · Jul-10-2012, 12:43pm

Those are some pretty skinny v-necks and Mike has big mittens, so widening the fretboard to get it playable makes all the sense in the world to me. It's a great sounding mandolin with a ton of honest wear from him .. must be 1,000's of hours on it. Mike's sense of time and great hands, really make that old box siiing!

**pjlama** · Jul-10-2012, 12:59pm

Originally Posted by SternART

PJ, I'm not a motorcycle guy like you, I prefer 4 wheels on my rides.......but I suspect at an auction, one of say Giacomo Agostini, multi-time world champion Grand Prix motorcycle road racer's bikes that was modified or souped up by a world class motorcycle tweaker...... but won at say Nürburgring........ might bring more than a stock, mint, hardly driven version of the same model motorcycle. Provenance counts.

Absolutely Arthur, I believe the provenance will ultimately outweigh the work and as Bruce says the work was done by Monte which helps a lot. Honestly this case is not normal so it doesn't illustrate my point fully. I'll take my beating and go away now

PS, too bad you're not a motorcycle guy, I could use some beautiful stained glass for my house

**coletrickle** · Jul-10-2012, 1:29pm

Provenance and celebrity are two different things to me. Celebrity is a passing fade...something that is hot from a cultural standpoint, but that might not be again. Provenance ties directly to meaningful contributions and/or historical significance. For instance, a pen that Elvis used to sign a contract (or the contract itself) is significant to the history of music and rock and roll...that is different than a tshirt signed by Justin Bieber. To me Marshall's contributions to acoustic music on that instrument specifically make it historically important, and therefore attaches a premium to its value. I'm not disagreeing that monetary value and celebrity isn't occurring...but in this case to me the instrument holds more value than a regular Loar because of the contributions it, and its player, have made to the music.

Of course the age old adage that it is only worth what someone will pay for it applies significantly here...but I don't think there is much argument that someone who wants this one will pay the premium.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-10-2012, 11:11pm

Originally Posted by coletrickle

Provenance and celebrity are two different things to me. Celebrity is a passing fade...something that is hot from a cultural standpoint, but that might not be again. Provenance ties directly to meaningful contributions and/or historical significance. For instance, a pen that Elvis used to sign a contract (or the contract itself) is significant to the history of music and rock and roll...that is different than a tshirt signed by Justin Bieber. To me Marshall's contributions to acoustic music on that instrument specifically make it historically important, and therefore attaches a premium to its value. I'm not disagreeing that monetary value and celebrity isn't occurring...but in this case to me the instrument holds more value than a regular Loar because of the contributions it, and its player, have made to the music.

Of course the age old adage that it is only worth what someone will pay for it applies significantly here...but I don't think there is much argument that someone who wants this one will pay the premium.

And let me go out on a limb here and say if Mike Marshall keeps it and plays it as his main mandolin -- it probably sounds pertty good...

**f5loar** · Jul-11-2012, 11:37am

Dave Apollon's 1923 Loar F5 is for sale on the cafe ads. Now that's historical providence in the mandolin world. Would there even be a David Grisman had there been no Dave Apollon? And no David Grisman, no Mike Marshall as the wheels turn. No Mike Marshall, no Chris Thile. You get my drift. Dave was the first mandolin player to take a Gibson F5 and do something more with it than "Rawhide".

**evanreilly** · Jul-11-2012, 12:45pm

And, as some of us know, there are at least two pictures of Dave Apollon that were signed by him and given to a young Bill Monroe.

**SternART** · Jul-11-2012, 2:46pm

Evan......sadly read of your wrist problems.
Heal well mandobro!

**SternART** · Jul-11-2012, 3:02pm

Originally Posted by evanreilly

And, as some of us know, there are at least two pictures of Dave Apollon that were signed by him and given to a young Bill Monroe.

I once witnessed a young Mike Marshall, and David Grisman.......picking backstage with Monroe at the Great American Music Hall in SF. Like F5 Loar says above.......there is a lineage of great mandolin players. Apollon was ahead of his time, and it is up to mandolin geeks, to keep his reputation going. Grisman showed an Apollon short film I hadn't seen before, at this years Mandolin Symposium, titled "The Wishing Stone", from 1935.

**Mike Romkey** · Jul-11-2012, 6:55pm

I think Apollon vids have been part of all the M. Symposia (if that's the right plural). I know we saw one the first year -- how the gypsy makes a violin (or mandolin) cry. ...

Meanwhile, back at the modified Loar lodge, I saw a vid of John Reischman and it looks like his Loar has a radius fretboard. Is that a common mod? Are the fretboards commonly swapped? Does Grisman have a radius board on his?

I guess, to loop back to the start, I'm surprised -- not shocked or appalled -- at the modifications.

And maybe this is its own thread, but Is a radius so superior that's what a top-flight pro would install on a Loar? I felt guilty replacing the wornout tuners on my '21 A Jr.

**evanreilly** · Jul-11-2012, 7:04pm

I believe Chis Thile has installed a radiused f-board on his Loar F-5.

**mtucker** · Jul-11-2012, 7:16pm

Originally Posted by Mike Romkey

but Is a radius so superior that's what a top-flight pro would install on a Loar?

there's a nut for every mando!

imo, it's nothing more than wanting something you're very familiar with, in thile's case ..radius board, larger frets. there's really nothing 'sacred' about a Loar, especially if you're chasing tone ...but if you don't like the way it handles, and doesn't suit you, but are afraid of modifying it for value reasons, then its likely it's not to be anyway .. that is, unless you plan on keeping it locked up it in a closet.

**f5loar** · Jul-12-2012, 8:57am

I think it was Bill Monroe circa 1994 when asked why he didn't have a radius fingerboard on his Loar said "why that ain't no part of nothin' " . So if Big Mon says he don't need it why should I? To me the radius is just another "something" new that you try and you either like it or you don't. I've tried it and don't like it. However there are different degrees of radius so not all radius fingerboards are created equal. The new KM1500 only has a slight radius and that does not seem to bother me. You get too much and it's like trying to pick across the face of a baseball bat. It really is a matter of what suits you not what the pros seem to favor at the moment. Bobby Osborne and Jesse McReynolds are still doing fine with flats and no toneguards. And neither has gone to using capos.

**Henry Eagle** · Jul-12-2012, 3:35pm

The story I remember is that David Grisman had John Monteleone make a curved fingerboard for his Grand Artist (can't remember his Fern, though), because David suffered from tendonitis some time in the 70s. I wonder, if my health insurance would cover that.
And Mike, a correct plural of "symposium" would be something like "booze-ups".

Cheers,
Henry

**SternART** · Jul-12-2012, 4:59pm

Grisman has a Dave Appolon fingerboard he got from Dave's widow, installed on his '25 Fern........not sure if he had it arched or not. And if I'm not mistaken 'Crusher' has a flat board, which I think is original.

**Mike Romkey** · Jul-12-2012, 7:04pm

I've had both and prefer flat. Glad to know I'm no Luddite. (Don't kid yourself, Judge Schmales, you're a tremendous Luddite.) Though a new 24-channel digital Presonus board with a monitor mix I can control with my iPhone must count for something.

**jackc** · Jul-24-2012, 8:38pm

Originally Posted by Mike Romkey

Good point about the Strads and indeed every pre-"modern" violin. The necks were angled (do I have this right?) for gut strings and baroque bows and had to be redone for metal/composite strings and modern bows, to achieve more volume while making it harder to play all the chords in those Bach Preludes.

Actually, baroque necks were dead flat with respect to the plane of the body, and the fingerboard was a wedge to supply angle. The necks were usually face glued and attached with a nail, Strads included. As performance venues got bigger, and "standard" pitch increased, slightly longer necks were retro-fitted to early violins, including most, but not all, Strads. The neck shafts were mortised at a slight angle into the neck blocks, and the scrolls, which are considered the most significant mark of the maker, were cut from the original neck root and grafted onto the new one. You can see this graft on almost all of the old violins if they've been converted, and it's often faked on new "antiqued" violins with scribe lines, and sometimes a real graft is done on a good reproduction. The resulting increase in string tension gave a brighter and more penetrating sound.

**Fretbear** · Jul-27-2012, 10:16pm

It's clear from these seemingly common Strad practices (such as grafting the original scroll onto a new neck etc.) that our modern preoccupation with originality in 100 year old factory instruments is not shared by all old instrument aficionados.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-29-2012, 9:03am

Originally Posted by Fretbear

It's clear from these seemingly common Strad practices (such as grafting the original scroll onto a new neck etc.) that our modern preoccupation with originality in 100 year old factory instruments is not shared by all old instrument aficionados.

modern preoccupation with originality = Unrelenting, insatiable fanatics?

**BradKlein** · Jul-29-2012, 9:24am

I think that questions of originality will always co-exist with questions of utility when it comes to musical instruments. It's just that violins make up a much more 'mature' market than American fretted instruments which came into their own less than a century ago.

Perhaps the most valuable Stradivarius violin is the so-called Messiah, almost unplayed, at the Ashmolean Museum. It's a 'collector' piece and has been since shortly after Tony Stradivari's death in 1737. Others are especially valuable due to their sound, condition, provenance.

George Gruhn has written a number of thoughtful essays on the tension between collectors and musicians, and often implies that there is much to learn from the much older trade in violin family instruments. Here's one.