Mike Marshall's Loar

[pjlama]

I agree that Marshall is a special talent and since he owns his Loar he should be able to do With it as he pleases. With that in mind we are far too quick to deify "special talents" in our society. We even forgive their sins, because theyre special. There's not one of us more deserved than another. Given the circumstance the value of his Loar has been considerably compromised. The next owner will likely pay for the provenance but once Mike's been gone awhile it will be considered a devalued instrument. A case can and will (in the future) be made that all Loars passed through the hands of special players.

[Spruce]

A case can and will (in the future) be made that all Loars passed through the hands of special players.

I know a hellova lot that that haven't...
Not gonna name numbers for fear of not calling someone "special", but them are the facts...

Of course, there are a lot of Strads that are named for players who might not have been "special" players, but are valuable because of the provenance...
The Benny Strad sure comes to mind...

[Fretbear]

It is important to note that Mike's Loar was a special case. Monteleone spoke about that particular instrument having had some wild variations in it's graduations, not common to what one would expect to find in a Loar. The tonebars might also have been questionably sized and profiled if they were attached to a top that was known to be "out" as well. Besides this, the tonebars now had two notches in them where the Virzi feet had been cracked-out by the new owner. Mike said somewhere else that the mandolin had always sounded good, but that he often had to exert time and hard-playing to get it to warm up and respond and he wanted something that would more easily respond to a lighter touch. He also reported that Monteleone had achieved these aims for him. Anyone who says something like this should be left alone, should pony up the money for it and then put it in their vault. Mike paid his money, which made it his, and then decided to use it for what it was designed for, to make music, and then made intelligent decisions to further that aim.

[pjlama]

It is important to note that Mike's Loar was a special case. Monteleone spoke about that particular instrument having had some wild variations in it's graduations, not common to what one would expect to find in a Loar. The tonebars might also have been questionably sized and profiled if they were attached to a top that was known to be "out" as well. Besides this, the tonebars now had two notches in them where the Virzi feet had been cracked-out by the new owner. Mike said somewhere else that the mandolin had always sounded good, but that he often had to exert time and hard-playing to get it to warm up and respond and he wanted something that would more easily respond to a lighter touch. He also reported that Monteleone had achieved these aims for him.

Still interesting. I'm not saying this is expressly the case with MM's Loar but would YOU modify a Loar to make it sound the way you want it to? Great, YOU have a Loar but you had to devalue it to get it to sound the way YOU want it to. It appears that some repairs were needed to MM's Loar but things went further to suit his needs. We're not talking about a fretboard scoop here people.

[almeriastrings]

I have always found a very curious disparity between those who insist that even slight mods or even repairs, in some cases, essentially hugely devalue or "desecrate" a vintage instrument... but at the same time apply a totally different set of standards when it comes to, say, Tony Rice's D-28, Sam Bush's "Hoss", or this particular Loar.... all often cited as being amazing instruments, yet have enough "desecrations" between them to deserve an outing on Halloween or Friday 13th

[Ivan Kelsall]

This is an interesting thread indeed. I've often wondered about the Loar's that have had either 'restoration' work or modifications done to them. It raises the question - would an un-touched but rather 'less good' sounding Loar be more revered than a Loar that had had work done on it & that sounded superb ?. Funnily,it works both ways for me. If i found an un-touched Loar,that would open the way for me to have it modified to how I wanted it to be 'a la Christ Thile'. Also,if i found a Loar that had been modified & was 'ready to go',again i'd be very satisfied. I suppose that the bottom line is,that if it plays well & sounds good,then maybe only the absolute 'purists' might require an un-touched Loar. Purely as a 'listener to Loars',the sound & the guy in the driving seat is all !!,
Ivan

[Fretbear]

I think something like the Hippocratic oath needs to be applied in these cases; "Do no harm." When a surgeon cuts open your chest to do his work, he is not breaking his oath, rather he is often saving your life. The fingerboard that "fell off" of David McLaughlin's Loar while he was attending a Merlefest; was he to do nothing about that? The original fingerboards of all these vintage Loars have been preserved for posterity, along with their intonation, some of which is off.
Rice's D-28 has never had anything but that Gretsch fingerboard on it since the White Brothers bought it. One look at Marshall's Loar will tell you that there are other more important things about it that would put a collector off than it's internal modifications.

[almeriastrings]

Rice's D-28 has never had anything but that Gretsch fingerboard on it since the White Brothers bought it. .

By then it had the soundhole enlarged, and a couple of BB pellet holes added for good effect.....legend has the latter by Clarence....

[jjboone101]

I think the argument about mods on MM's Loar are somewhat moot because based on his comments about how special this instrument is, I doubt it will ever be on the market while he's around....so back to Thile's comment about vintage instruments -- set them up the way you want and the play the crap out of them. I like that school of thought.

[Philphool]

By then it had the soundhole enlarged, and a couple of BB pellet holes added for good effect.....legend has the latter by Clarence....

IIRC, Roland has said that the soundhole was enlarged BEFORE he & Clarence bought the guitar. No?

[almeriastrings]

Yes. The soundhole was, apparently.

[John Duncan]

Just my opinion, but I think the "loar sound/tone/magicality" has been vastly overstated and hyped by people and this forum in particular. At this point, they are investments (and really nice ones at that considering how they appreciate in value) so I guess for folks who want to protect their investments and keep them original they have a valid point.

For true players who love that sound (whatever it might be) they are going to do whatever they want to make things playable. And they should, I think. I'm sure 40 years from now mandolin players will bemoan and begrudge us for altering Kimbles/Flatirons/Gibsons/fill in the blank.

Once again, just my opinion, for what that's worth considering the player I am and how little I've been around this wonderful music and scene.

[Fretbear]

So much of it is subjective. In his recent autobiography, Tony Rice makes the provocative statement that he believes the value of his 1935 Martin D-28 will eventually surpass any of the other pioneer's "Grail" instruments such as Monroe's Loar or Scruggs' Granada.
He also notes that it is not for sale, that you cannot just take it, and that if you would like to try that he has a licensed concealed weapon that he will be happy to introduce you to. I appreciate his modern Doc Holliday "guitar-slinger" sensibilities. I am not commenting on this, just noting it. Norman Blake owns and plays a 1934 Martin D-18H (The H is for "Hawaiian", since converted) He notes that George Gruhn says that besides his, there were only two others made in 1936 which are not accounted for, meaning Blake's may be the only one in existence. Now that is rare.



http://www.chiefnoda.com/intvw/nb.html

[sgarrity]

Keep in mind too that when Marshall got his Loar they weren't nearly as valuable as they are today. IMHO they are tools for making music. Do what you want to with them if it makes it easier to play and sound better.

[Willie]

The smart thing to do is not let it be known that any alterations were made since the tone bars had nicks in them it seems that it was a needed repair....If and when a repair such as this IS made then I guess it depends on who did the repair that would make it drop in value or maybe even increase....I know some repairmen that are great but won`t touch any Martin guitars or Loars because they are not "authorized repairmen" by the factorys....Many Martin guitar bracings have been shaved thriough the years by some "butchers" and its best never to let it be know when they are up for sale....

Way too much hype on this subject anyway.....As many have stated on here not all Loars were perfect, bluegrassers like a certain sound and other forms of music may not like that sound....When Loars were made they weren`t made for bluegrass anyway so maybe thats why some have been altered.....

Willie

[f5loar]

MM's Loar became "non original" when he jerked the Virzi out. True it was a common thing to do back in the 70's because everyone knew "Big Mon's" didn't have one. Today the Virzi is much more respected.

[D C Blood]

Of course, there are a lot of Strads that are named for players who might not have been "special" players, but are valuable because of the provenance...
The Benny Strad sure comes to mind... [/QUOTE]

Jack might not have been 'the best'...but he was known as a concert-quality violinist, before he found his true calling...

[mrmando]

Jack might not have been 'the best'...but he was known as a concert-quality violinist, before he found his true calling...

Not true. He was never a concert violinist. He was a vaudeville musician who developed his comedic talent as a way of getting through gigs where his violin playing was not well received.

[Jeff Budz]

Great thread. I like CT's approach of replace / preserve on his Loar. I can see how a purist might not like MM's Loar after the mods, but I'm sure he doesn't care. If I were a rich man, as a fan of music I would rather buy Thile's/Marshal's/Bush's/Monroe's mandolin than a pristine Loar. If I were a collector/investor obviously would want pristine.

[pjlama]

I just want to reiterate that I believe a person is free to do with their property as they see fit. I'm just bringing to light the hyprocaracy in our society that states a "celebrity" is better than any other person. That line of thinking would allow MM to mod his Loar and for a lay person to be flamed for the same action. I have no horse in this race, I'm just incensed that we, as a society somehow feel noteriety allows a person special license. As I stated previously that there is not one of us more deserved that another. I truly believe that we should be judged on our charachter and not our accomplishments. BTW I have tremendous respect for MM, his abilities and accomplishments and his rights as a human being and property owner. For me this has more to do with the questions raised about the re-graduated RSDMM at Gruhn's than MM's Loar.

[Padre]

there's a distinction between collectors that will try to have the item in the best condition possible
and thos who uses the item as a tool of the trade. If they can afford current price for Loar and want that perticular sound
they'll get it, but still personalize - just like Chris Thile did with his.
I don't think those people will be trying to resale it to get their money back, and in that case they can do with the mandolin whatever they think it will help, improve the feel and playing.
I don't treat my instruments as museum pieces - they are there to be used and played. I do take care of them, clean them and stuff.
but if I'm playing, I'm playing. If I need to make some changes in them I do that.

[CES]

I'm still cringing at the thought of them whacking the virzi out with a screwdriver...one miss, and, well, then you have a Loar more like Bill's than you'd care to think about.

Both of the Loars I've heard in person were spectacular instruments (Chris T's and one of Tom Isenhour's). It doesn't justify today's price tag for me, especially compared to a Gilchrist, Dude, insert top-tier luthier of your choice here, but there's no denying their tone was special. Heck, with my meager skills, my Silverangel Econo is more mandolin than I need...

At any rate, I don't have a problem with mods as long as they don't ruin the instrument tonally or structurally. Being a cheapskate, I do have a problem with paying that much for a mando and then feeling that I needed to modify it...

[Willie]

Keeping a mandolin original is for a collector, altering it to a better sound is for a picker....If a good luthier can make any mandolin sound better using his years of experience than I see nothing wrong with letting him have at it, Loars weren`t made for bluegrass originally and luthiers like Randy Wood, among others, know what a mandolin should sound like to be a good bluegrass instrument and they know what to do to get that sound so if when it comes up for a resale a bluegrasser will most likely be the person to buy it...If he can afford it....Monroes isn`t anywhere near original and it is said to be the "Holy Grail"....not by me though....

Sure, I would like to own one but if it meant having the top re carved to get a better sound I would have it done....Thats just my two cents worth....The ones with a virzi should be altered, they are not for bluegrass in my opinion....and a lot of other peoples also, I might add....

Willie

[SternART]

I'm just bringing to light the hyprocaracy in our society that states a "celebrity" is better than any other person.

PJ, I'm not a motorcycle guy like you, I prefer 4 wheels on my rides.......but I suspect at an auction, one of say Giacomo Agostini, multi-time world champion Grand Prix motorcycle road racer's bikes that was modified or souped up by a world class motorcycle tweaker...... but won at say Nürburgring........ might bring more than a stock, mint, hardly driven version of the same model motorcycle. Provenance counts.

[Spruce]

I'm just bringing to light the hyprocaracy in our society that states a "celebrity" is better than any other person. That line of thinking would allow MM to mod his Loar and for a lay person to be flamed for the same action.

Hey, the attribution for the mods are heaped upon the shoulders of John Monteleone and Lynn--not Mike--and will go down in history as such....

If Mike wanted something done to the instrument that either thought was a bad idea, they wouldn't have done it...

So yeah, "noteriety allows a person special license."