Mike Marshall's Loar

**Mike Romkey** · Jul-07-2012, 1:23pm

Anybody know who put the radiused, scalloped fretboard on MM's mandolin? Looks like CT's is sporting a scallop too. Just curious about who gets the call to do that kind of work. And no, I'm not contemplating modifying my Loar. I don't have one.

**Rob Fowler** · Jul-07-2012, 1:37pm

Mike, I'm pretty sure Steve Gilchrist did all the work on Thile's Loar but I'm not sure about Mike Marshall's. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

**Fretbear** · Jul-07-2012, 1:47pm

John Monteleone took the back off to re-graduate the top and replace the tone bars, so it is likely that he may have done that job as well.

**Spruce** · Jul-07-2012, 1:50pm

John Monteleone as I remember??
I think I saw the original 'board...

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-07-2012, 2:43pm

Originally Posted by Fretbear

John Monteleone took the back off to re-graduate the top and replace the tone bars, so it is likely that he may have done that job as well.

Interesting situation that creates it seems for the MM mandolin.

If Monteleone re-graduated the top board and replaced the tone bars the mandolin is a "Loar" only due to the fact the mandolin was originally carved and glued at the Gibson factory when Loar was there? Most of the tonal properties of the mandolin are now a Monteleone? Not that he would sell it anyway but this has to impact the value of the mandolin I would think?

As regards the CT Loar I think I recall some where on this site the mention that the original fret board was removed and preserved and a new one with Chris's preferred frets and the extension scallop was glued on?

**Spruce** · Jul-07-2012, 2:55pm

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

Most of the tonal properties of the mandolin are now a Monteleone? Not that he would sell it anyway but this has to impact the value of the mandolin I would think?

Everything gets sold eventually...

Even if the Monteleone work devalued it (which I don't think it would), the Marshall provenance would certainly up the ante....

**SternART** · Jul-07-2012, 3:06pm

I agree with Spruce.............after all it is Gator's Loar, not one of the several others signed on that date! Here is more info from the Cafe interview back in Feb 2010. Looks like Chris Berkov had the last crack at it:

Question: Tell us about your battered and tattered worn Loar. When did you acquire it and do you know any history on it? Has it had any modifications over the years? Why do you like it so much over other mandolins you have played?

Mike Marshall: It's a 1924 F5 Gibson Lloyd Loar. I'll never forget the day I opened the case. I was touring with David Grisman then. Tony Rice, Darol Anger and Todd Phillips were there, and we all just flipped over it. So I had to figure out a way to pay the big ticket price at that time.

Todd Phillips and I took the virzi out of it one fool moon night shortly after I got it. We just took a long bent screw driver and a hammer and I held it while he banged the thing until it fell out (not recommended). But I have a recording of this event some place (NOTE: see audio recording below).

We learned after taking it out, that these things are actually held in with a metal pin on one of the three legs and the other two are inlaid into the tone bars so they are pretty difficult to remove. But we were determined.

I've done many things to this mandolin over the years to personalize it and make it really work for me. John Monteleone re-graduated the top soon after the virzi removal and put new tone bars in it. This didn't really change the character of the tone, but just made it a bit more responsive when playing softly. Also, he made a new fingerboard and a bridge and nut.

I have since been through many different bridges and nuts over the years just experimenting with materials, thicknesses and string spacings.

Chris Birkov widened the fingerboard about 5 years ago by putting strips of ebony down the edge of the fingerboard and flaring it out to make it a bit easier for my big fingers. The bridge I have now is touching all the way across the length of the bridge as per Sam Bush's recommendation. It sounds very nice.

We also put a shim under the fingerboard that raised the bridge about a 16th of an inch at the bridge. (it's starts at the nut at zero height and gradually comes up. This added a bit more tension to the top which I felt it needed. It helped a lot.

We also put a dip in the fingerboard at the extension to get rid of the pick click.

A few cracks have been repaired here and there over the years and I think I put a couple of scratches on it too

.

I have played lots of mandolins over the years, but I always come back to this one for some reason. I think it's because of the mid-range being very, very solid. It might not have that much big bassy low-end or even be as loud as some mandolins, but this solidity in the mid-range I think is what makes this mandolin so even from note to note and also what makes it record so well."

**sunburst** · Jul-07-2012, 3:07pm

What about the Monteleone provenance? Seems to me the combination of MM and JM might even increase the value.
(John Monteleone has a mason jar in his shop containing the shavings from Mike Marshall's mandolin.)

**Spruce** · Jul-07-2012, 3:35pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

(John Monteleone has a mason jar in his shop containing the shavings from Mike Marshall's mandolin.)

Which looked a whole lot like Sitka to me...
(...and I would take that comment with a grain of salt--no confirmation whatsoever)....

**SternART** · Jul-07-2012, 3:49pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

What about the Monteleone provenance? Seems to me the combination of MM and JM might even increase the value.

I agree........but a purist vintage instrument collector might have a different opinion, they sometimes prefer the virtually mint & hardly played specimen. This Loar isn't just an instrument previously owned by a world famous musician, who was a collector & owned tons of instruments......it is Marshall's signature instrument that he has played for many years, used on many important recordings, etc. In this case I think provenance rules and adds to the potential value, like Dawg's "Crusher", Sam's "Hoss", Jethro's red two point, or Big Mon's Loar.........all signature instruments the musician is identified with. Now owning all of these would be the ultimate Gibson mandolin collection......maybe add Reischman's Loar too........it is dated the same as Mike's.

**BradKlein** · Jul-07-2012, 3:51pm

The value that provenance imparts on an instrument is a funny thing. It's based to varying degrees on magical thinking, emotional attachment, and that a particular musician 'vouches' for a particular instrument, and what worked for one artist at one time, might also work for another.

Magical thinking is just the idea that somehow the touch of a musician or other famous person might somehow make an instrument 'better'. Lefty Frizzell's Bigsby J-200 was desired by many who admired his music just because it was his.

Emotional attachment might explain how, out of all the people above, Lefty's guitar was worth 'most' to Merle Haggard, who associated it with a pivotal moment in his own career, and memories of the original owner.

As for the last, I really do think that many pro musicians bring a very high level of discernment to their choices of an instrument. And there is something of a feedback loop where the player looks for something in the instrument - and the instrument give what it has - and that affects the player - round and round. And so when an admired musician sticks with an instrument so long, it is testimony that it worked for them.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-07-2012, 3:55pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

What about the Monteleone provenance? Seems to me the combination of MM and JM might even increase the value.
(John Monteleone has a mason jar in his shop containing the shavings from Mike Marshall's mandolin.)

I suppose for the right buyer -- it would be important that John Monteleone worked on it and Mike Marshall owned it. Personally that wouldn't mean that much to me but everyone has there own opinions. I would for consider some the changes he made to the fret board (widening) value added to the instrument.

The 1952 Gibson F-12 I had Randy Wood re-graduate did not seem to increase in value when I decided to move it -- but perhaps I could have waited and found a buyer who would have been willing to pay.

The part I found most interesting it the idea that he widened and increased the pitch of the finger board. I've often wondered if there was a way to do that. I had a 2002 Gibson Fern once that I still think is the best mandolin I ever had -- I had a chance to play it back to back with a 1924 Loar and there was not much difference between the two mandolins.

I eventually sold for a Sam Bush model because of that narrow finger board. But I asked several luthiers about the possibility of widening the fret board but none thought the idea was really doable. Or at least they were not interested in going there -- probably for good reason.

I assume the frets are wider too and are set into the ebony strips on the side of his fret board.

I would dearly love to see that mandolin close up -- even touch it!!

**Spruce** · Jul-07-2012, 4:01pm

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

I would dearly love to see that mandolin close up....

It's been a long time, but I remember the graining on the neck to be really whacked...
Anyone have any pics kicking around of that thing??

**Newmexmandoboy** · Jul-07-2012, 4:31pm

Not good pics. But pics. MM's mando.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y...0/IMG_0532.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...2/IMG_0533.JPG

**George R. Lane** · Jul-07-2012, 4:37pm

I don't see any photos.

**Newmexmandoboy** · Jul-07-2012, 4:42pm

The original links were broken. They should work now.

**Mike Romkey** · Jul-07-2012, 5:16pm

Thanks, everybody!

I got to see this mandolin up close and personal at the first Mandolin Symposium, but I was too wet behind the ears to ask about any of the customizing beyond the transducer Mike had had installed.

I too find it interesting that he had the top re-graduated and the tone bars replaced. Just goes to show, as I've heard people who have played lots of Loars say, quality differs even among the best of the best.

**Lynn Dudenbostel** · Jul-07-2012, 5:17pm

I did the fingerboard replacement on Chris' Loar. He wanted a radius, scoop, and better intonation, so it just made sense to replace the board and preserve the original. Several vintage fingerboards have been replaced... some for the reasons Chris gave, some because of wear. Sam said he is on his 4th fingerboard on "Hoss"-

**BradKlein** · Jul-07-2012, 5:37pm

Originally Posted by Mike Romkey

I too find it interesting that he had the top re-graduated and the tone bars replaced

It's interesting to remember that not only have all the Stradivarius violins in use today had their necks replaced - I believe that all, or at least the great majority, have had their bass bar replaced -the equivalent of tone bars in a mandolin.

**Mike Romkey** · Jul-07-2012, 5:45pm

Good point about the Strads and indeed every pre-"modern" violin. The necks were angled (do I have this right?) for gut strings and baroque bows and had to be redone for metal/composite strings and modern bows, to achieve more volume while making it harder to play all the chords in those Bach Preludes.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-07-2012, 6:08pm

Thanks for the great pics of Mikes mandolin. Looks like the nut is about 1 3/16" like a Bush F-5. That's pretty amazing. Let's start a collection and buy Mike a pick guard!

Oh and one other thing -- even players like Marshall and Thile do not need the extension frets I guess!

**pjlama** · Jul-07-2012, 6:28pm

Interesting thread. Steve Gilchrist was going to replace the fingerboard on his #670 for me to make it wider and build the shoulder out a bit. I'm not sure how he was going to do it but I sold it right around the time he was coming to the States so it didn't happen. I think it's interesting that MM had the top re-graduated and nobody is saying it killed the value where a lot of people were tweaked out by the RW re-graduation on the RSDMM at Gruhns. I guess being owned by MM makes the modification ok?

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-07-2012, 6:41pm

Originally Posted by pjlama

Interesting thread. Steve Gilchrist was going to replace the fingerboard on his #670 for me to make it wider and build the shoulder out a bit. I'm not sure how he was going to do it but I sold it right around the time he was coming to the States so it didn't happen. I think it's interesting that MM had the top re-graduated and nobody is saying it killed the value where a lot of people were tweaked out by the RW re-graduation on the RSDMM at Gruhns. I guess being owned by MM makes the modification ok?

There probably is a little margin given to special talents like Marshall and others -- they should probably have the mandolin they want because they can do with it what very few others can.

To me it seems pretty amazing that someone would take to modifications on a mandolin potentially worth a cool quarter of a $MIL and an instrument that will "live on" long after the owner. Still I think if someone owns a mandolin its theirs and they can do what they want with it.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jul-07-2012, 6:48pm

Originally Posted by pjlama

Interesting thread. Steve Gilchrist was going to replace the fingerboard on his #670 for me to make it wider and build the shoulder out a bit. I'm not sure how he was going to do it but I sold it right around the time he was coming to the States so it didn't happen. I think it's interesting that MM had the top re-graduated and nobody is saying it killed the value where a lot of people were tweaked out by the RW re-graduation on the RSDMM at Gruhns. I guess being owned by MM makes the modification ok?

There probably is a little margin given to special talents like Marshall and others -- they should probably have the mandolin they want because they can do with it what very few others can.

Still it is pretty amazing that someone would take to modifications on a mandolin potentially worth a cool quarter of a mil. and an instrument that will "live on" long after the owner. Still I think if someone owns a mandolin its theirs and they can do what they want with it.

BTW, cool story on your web page!

**dcoventry** · Jul-07-2012, 8:11pm

Originally Posted by pjlama

Interesting thread. Steve Gilchrist was going to replace the fingerboard on his #670 for me to make it wider and build the shoulder out a bit. I'm not sure how he was going to do it but I sold it right around the time he was coming to the States so it didn't happen. I think it's interesting that MM had the top re-graduated and nobody is saying it killed the value where a lot of people were tweaked out by the RW re-graduation on the RSDMM at Gruhns. I guess being owned by MM makes the modification ok?

PJ is the "winner winner" of the metaphorical Chicken dinner. Fascinating the whole way around. For one "guy" it's hunky-dory, but for a another, probably lesser mortal, nay? harumph.