Fiddle repair (small mando content)

**Oliver R** · Jul-06-2012, 5:34am

Hello guys,
I can play the mandolin (Mandolin content

)but not the fiddle, however my wife can,
The thing is she left it in the car overnight and at the moment (even in the UK) the humidity is high.
Long story short, when we opened the case the neck had completely removed itsself

So....it's a super clean seperation with zero wood or varnish damage and there looks to be little or no glue in the joint (part of the issue no doubt).
I'm thinking of attempting the repair myself and wondered if you could give me a little advice on glue/clamping /prep etc.

Yours humbly,
Oliver

**houseworker** · Jul-06-2012, 6:08am

I'm afraid I'd advise against doing it yourself unless your wife's fiddle is an eBay cheapie that's not worth the expense of a proper repair. From the way you phrased the question, I'm assuming you don't have the more basic necessary skills such as installing a soundpost (which you would certainly need).

It shouldn't be an expensive repair, and the setup that will come with it will probably be of benefit anyway.

**Oliver R** · Jul-06-2012, 6:13am

I can do soundposts actually and have done quite a bit of mandolin/guitar renovation but fiddles are a bit different.
It's not a cheapie (although it probably is in the violin world), just a good player.

**houseworker** · Jul-06-2012, 7:10am

OK. You'll need to shape a couple of wooden blocks to fit above the fingerboard and under the back (which needs to be a good fit to the button). The neck is clamped with a G clamp onto the two clamping blocks - wrap the clamp with a soft cloth to prevent damage to the edges of the fiddle. Practice the clamping before using any glue. Check that the neck is fitting straight, and that the root is sitting against the button without needing significant pressure, otherwise the top block can split.

You need to use hot hide glue, which I assume you're used to. It may be beneficial to glue size the front end grain at the top of the mortice with hot thin glue ahead of fitting the neck - this would certainly be done with a new instrument. When you are ready, apply fresh hot glue to the neck root, mortice and button, put the neck in and lightly clamp. Then double check for position and straightness before clamping tighter. Leave it clamped overnight.

I'm hoping that just the thought of shaping those clamping blocks will be enough to make you have second thoughts. This is a quick easy repair for a professional.

Edit. I was assuming that this fiddle is of sufficient quality to have been glued with HHG from the off. If you're dealing with Titebond or suchlike you'll need to be fastidious in removing every last trace of the old glue. I'd still use HHG this time around.

**jonathanlloyd84** · Jul-06-2012, 7:36am

I have heard there is a good repairer in Cardiff but I dont have his contact details... I think his name is Stuart Hyliss... Hope this helps...

**bmac** · Jul-06-2012, 7:47am

If you are handy there is no reason why you shouldn't try it... A violin is made to be repaired and your repair sounds fairly straightforward... The only advice I could give would be obvious, and that is to dry-fit it a few times before using glue. I suspect if your instrument is worth several thousand dollars, or more, you wouldn't be suggesting this. But you have to start somewhere.... And better your wife's violin than your mandolin!!! (joke)

If you are unfamiliar with hot hide glue you should really practice with it quite a bit before using it on the instrument... Your working time is very limited .

**Stephen Perry** · Jul-06-2012, 8:09am

There's likely glue on the surfaces. Hit with 140 degree water and quickly clamp. I use spool clamps.

**Oliver R** · Jul-06-2012, 9:08am

Thank you for all your kind advice.
It was HHG I recon as its a decent age (1910ish) and i'm not sure other glues would have come adrift that way.
I will use HHG and I will do this repair in collaboration with a friend of mine who is a cabinet maker in his shop.

**Tim W** · Jul-06-2012, 9:52am

I've done a fair amount of this and if it were me, I'd take an iron to that fingerboard to heat it enough to pop that glue line with an oil painters spatula and remove the fingerboard. You then have just the flat top of the neck to deal with and it's easier to clamp that way. I'd fix that with two spool clamps and a C clamp for the neck heel. Also I'd scrape away old glue on all those surfaces being careful not to cut any wood.

The button (at the top end of back plate that covers neck heel) is the most important part of that fiddle as far as structural soundness goes and is where that whole joint get's its strength from so when you clamp it all up, remember that it is easy to bust that off with a poorly positioned clamp.

Use hide glue, like you planned and when that is all dry and tight you can simply put your fingerboard back on with a few spring clamps; simple. As for doing any of this with cabinet shop methods, the two have about as much in common as making a peanut butter sandwich with a tire tool. Don't overdo it, it's a simple fix and you'll do fine. Have a paper towel dampened with warm water handy for the squeeze out. When you're done, any excess cleans up easily.

If you feel the need, PM me for my phone number and we can talk about it, I'd be happy to help.

**Oliver R** · Jul-06-2012, 6:47pm

Thank you Tim.
I say he is a cabinet maker/workshop worker but he is also a very skilled fella, made a couple of guitars himself, so he has a bit of finesse!
But I take your point about taking the fretboard off. Nice flat surface to clamp to, we will see...I may pick your brains a bit more at some point.
Cheers
Oliver

**houseworker** · Jul-06-2012, 9:55pm

Originally Posted by Oliver R

I take your point about taking the fretboard off.

Fretboard???

Despite the inconvenience of needing a shaped clamping block, it is definitely better to do this with the fingerboard still attached. The reason is simple - it makes it far far easier to confirm that the neck has been fitted straight.

**Donzen** · Jul-07-2012, 6:34am

To supplement what other folks have said here,......I would NOT remove the fingerboard. If this is indeed a clean separation of the neck from the neck block, I would be sure to remove all the old glue from both the neck block and the neck heel by using hot water with a small bristle brush and spend some time getting every bit of the old glue off the two parts that will be refitted.

After removal of all the old stuff, you can prepare your hide glue and reseal as someone previously mentioned with a thin application of new hide glue. Borrow your wife's hair dryer and bring the neck block and neck up to a warm temperature B4 you apply new glue to those surfaces. Once warm, apply a good amount of hide glue to both surfaces and reclamp making sure everything is aligned properly. Now you gotta clamp the nect to the violin body. You gotta make a "neck block jig" to fit the radius of the neck heel and you could clamp with a 20-30 inch wood workers clamp to the end pin block....but if you do this you gotta remove the end pin of course. Also, if you do this be very careful of NOT applying too much pressure or you will cause severe damage. Good luck, let us know how you go forward...

Don

**Oliver R** · Jul-07-2012, 7:29am

Houseworker
I have no thanks button as yet, but thanks anyway for implying that I am a simpleton. I was really under the impression that the fiddle had frets you know! Late night posts on a Friday are not always double checked for inaccuracy by my Batman, I must make him work longer hours.
However, thanks for your advice.

**houseworker** · Jul-07-2012, 8:04am

Originally Posted by Oliver R

Houseworker
I have no thanks button as yet.

Why would you want to thank yourself?

**Oliver R** · Jul-07-2012, 8:18am

For my general ignorance I suppose

**whistler** · Jul-07-2012, 9:54am

Originally Posted by jonathanlloyd84

I have heard there is a good repairer in Cardiff but I dont have his contact details... I think his name is Stuart Hyliss... Hope this helps...

You don't say where you're from, Jonathan, but Cumbria to Cardiff is a long drive on our little winding British roads. There will certainly be someone closer to hand than that.

I've heard of a good repairer* in Durham (UK), whose details I can seek out if necessary - let us know, Oliver.

*I've never met him, but I have seen his work. The daughter of a playing colleague of mine had her fiddle trampled by a reckless dancer at a ceilidh, pushing the fingerboard straight through the belly. This repairer did a damn-near invisible repair on the fiddle, and the owner swears blind it sounds better than it did before it was broken.

BTW If you do the repair yourself, definitely use hide glue since, should you make a hash of it, it would be little trouble for a good repairer to reverse your work. If you were to use a synthetic glue, you could potentially do irreversible damage.

**houseworker** · Jul-07-2012, 12:43pm

Originally Posted by whistler

Cumbria to Cardiff is a long drive on our little winding British roads. There will certainly be someone closer to hand than that.

I'd be thinking of Alan Towse in Kirkby-in-Furness, or maybe James Rawes who's just to the south of Carlisle.

**Oliver R** · Jul-08-2012, 3:21pm

Well..
I have thought long and hard about this.
I have looked at the job in hand and I have spoken to some people.
The decision is to repair it myself.
Careful cleaning with cotton buds and warm water,possibly a little scraping with a scalpel, let it dry.
Decided to use very strong elastic bands to clamp. They will fit to the contours I need them to and I can control the pressure to an extent.
The heel button is firmly still on the body so that's a good guide and the neck pocket is as tight as chuff so good for locating the neck true.
I have a friend that mixes rabbit skin glue and hot hide glue constantly so I can scrounge some of him.
Couple of dry runs and I will have a go.
What could possibly go wrong!!!
Thanks for the advice
Oliver

**Michael Lewis** · Jul-09-2012, 1:06am

Oliver, good for you, take the chance/opportunity to make the repair yourself. I think you can do it and to aid you in this action I offer a couple thoughts regarding this joint and the glue. From your description the joint fits very nicely, and this is a good reason to tackle the job yourself. The joint should fit closely all round, especially the button and everything else. Since hide glue is there already I would plan to do as Stephen Perry suggested, to apply hot water and more hot hide glue, but do all this very quickly so the wood doesn't have so much time exposed to all the moisture. Immediately clear any squeeze out and leave no water on the exposed surfaces. Gentle clamping should be all that is needed, and let it dry over night before handling. Good luck.

Minimize exposure to moisture

Don't leave ANY glue on the surface! It comes off so easily when wet but will pull finish off if allowed to dry.

**NAS** · Jul-09-2012, 6:27am

There are a couple of really important things to consider when refitting a violin neck. Elevation and centre. It is all too easy even with a well fitting neck to end up slightly out ruining the playability. clamp the neck up dry and using a straight edge along the finger board chech the height at the bridge is 27mm. also sight the neck for centre (I attach a new bridge using elastic bands around the box. when all is well take a second new bridge or failing that some stiff card place it at the end of the finger board an mark the top of the FB onto it use some painter low tack tape on the instrumet top to mark the position of the bridge left to right. when you glue check that the line on the new bridge / cardboard lines up exactly with the FB top and the marks on the tape.

It is all to easy to be 0.010" out in position at the neck socket and end up with the elevation and centre out by 3mm at the bridge.

I would not use elastic bands, no where near enough tension. shape some wooden blocks and cover them with cork or leather. It's been done that way for 200 years because it works!

**DougC** · Jul-09-2012, 7:36am

Neck angle is critical. It is not a matter of just gluing a joint. It has everything to do with string height.
If the neck fits snug in the mortice, you have a chance of success.

I measure like NAS for neck being straight but also mark the center of the fingerboard with a pencil and line it up with a center mark on the temporary bridge. The surface of the fingerboard at the bridge end, should be 21 mm above the surface of the violin. At the bridge 27mm. That should be about right on a dry fit and look at the back at the heel and button to find an exact match.

Another thing to watch for is this fit of the button at the base of the neck. It will show position creep and the glue may set at the wrong angle. So clamping pressure has to be even.

The nice thing about hide glue is that you can remove it and start over. Good luck.