Opening a mandolin up with high SPLs.

**OldSausage** · Jul-02-2012, 3:22pm

I wonder what 100 years sounds like...

**Mandobart** · Jul-02-2012, 3:57pm

Originally Posted by SincereCorgi

I was reading a violin forum, and somebody was asking about whether they could use a Tonerite to make their 100-year-old violin sound like a 200-year-old violin... kind of puts an interesting slant on things.

I'm sure that the application of the tonerite to a 100 year old violin for a period of approximately 100 years will result in an instrument startlingly similar to the sound of a 200 year old violin.

**foldedpath** · Jul-02-2012, 4:05pm

Originally Posted by greg_tsam

Originally Posted by JeffD

I can postulate a reasonable and pysically plausable explanation. Easily. But as to objective scientific proof, well nobody has done the science.

That last part is what gets me.

It's not that difficult to set up a before-and-after test where a new mandolin is artificially strummed, then recorded, then "de-damped" with the method of your choice, and then recorded again to see if there is an increase in volume. That's the first level of the claim -- that artificial vibration loosens up a stiff instrument and makes it louder -- and it's the easiest to test in an objective way. I've posted many times on the Cafe about how to set up a test like that. Testing for "tonal improvement" is much harder, because we all have different ideas about ideal tone. A test for volume increase would be the logical place to start investigating the claim.

So why doesn't anyone run that kind of test? Or a series of tests, because ideally it would involve more than one instrument? Here's why, with the usual disclaimer that it's just my personal opinion:

First, the skeptics feel that the burden of proof always lies with those making a claim. A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Of course, a thousand Internet wars are based on confusion between "personal anecdote" and "repeatable evidence" from good experiment design and independent confirmation, but one would hope that could be avoided here.

Second, those who are absolutely convinced that it works, based on personal anecdote (which is always valid on the personal level, if not universally), don't have any incentive to run the test because they're already believers. "Why should I go to all this trouble, when I know it works?"

And finally, the people who *do* have an incentive to prove it works, are those selling commercial instrument shakers and de-damping services. The fact that they're not demonstrating this kind of test, is something that I think speaks for itself.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-02-2012, 4:37pm

I love this subject every time it comes up. I love the thought even more of someone subjecting the family and neighbors to it. Carry on.

**Willie** · Jul-02-2012, 5:50pm

Most people that listen to that loud rock and roll already have their hearing messed up so they couldn`t hear a difference if there was one....Sound vibrations have to do something to the wood structor but whether it is for the better or worse is hard for me to say...I have never tried it....I have tried some devices that vibrate and didn`t see any difference.....My mandolins sound OK so I don`t try all of that stuff anymore.....

Willie

**Dan Co1e** · Jul-02-2012, 6:54pm

Years ago, somewhere in the cafe, there was a link to an expirement where two huge speakers were attached to a device that looked like an Iron Lung. Acoustic guitars were inserted and bombarded with the full sound spectrum. Don't really remember the results, and can't seem to find the link....

**Stephen Perry** · Jul-02-2012, 8:27pm

At one time, I had spectrograms of before and after with this and that done. I didn't really understand how to interpret them, but there were clear changes. I asked a few "experts" about the matter and at that point decided permanently to keep my real research secret.

And that is where it stands in this little research lab. I know how to do science (I used to do research for a living) and I know how to do instruments. And I also know when I'm going to get hassled by trolls.

You'll find, for example, my mandovoodoo process explained in an earlier thread. And the before and after tonerite. Or a year of playing v. an unplayed instrument. And all kinds of other things. That are perfectly suited to spectral and who knows what else analysis. And it's easy. Microphone. Computer program. Pretty pictures.

Have fun! Do wear your anti-troll suit.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-02-2012, 8:53pm

In my experience bombarding the instrument with Def Leppard seems to open things up a lot faster than Hootie and the Blowfish. Make sure you turn the amp up as high as you can and leave it on day and night for at least a week.

**OldSausage** · Jul-02-2012, 11:05pm

Fol de rol, apparently.

**greg_tsam** · Jul-03-2012, 4:06am

Why keep it secret? Did they say something that didn't agree with you or...?

I've read about your mandovoodoo process with great interest and recall you not only use sound waves of a specific frequency and vibrations but also shave off minute amounts of wood dust at key location. This goes beyond simply playing it in and opening it up. I also watched the video of the professor shaving his violin on stage and achieving a subtle but recognizable difference in tone.

But that was physical manipulation. It was astonishing but concrete. I can believe in that.

Originally Posted by Stephen Perry

At one time, I had spectrograms of before and after with this and that done. I didn't really understand how to interpret them, but there were clear changes. I asked a few "experts" about the matter and at that point decided permanently to keep my real research secret.

And that is where it stands in this little research lab. I know how to do science (I used to do research for a living) and I know how to do instruments. And I also know when I'm going to get hassled by trolls.

You'll find, for example, my mandovoodoo process explained in an earlier thread. And the before and after tonerite. Or a year of playing v. an unplayed instrument. And all kinds of other things. That are perfectly suited to spectral and who knows what else analysis. And it's easy. Microphone. Computer program. Pretty pictures.

Have fun! Do wear your anti-troll suit.

**Stephen Perry** · Jul-03-2012, 7:48am

Originally Posted by greg_tsam

Why keep it secret? Did they say something that didn't agree with you or...?

I've read about your mandovoodoo process with great interest and recall you not only use sound waves of a specific frequency and vibrations but also shave off minute amounts of wood dust at key location. This goes beyond simply playing it in and opening it up. I also watched the video of the professor shaving his violin on stage and achieving a subtle but recognizable difference in tone.

But that was physical manipulation. It was astonishing but concrete. I can believe in that.

Using sound waves or a vibrating object on a plate is physical manipulation. Vibrate stuff enough and it breaks. Can have temporary and permanent effects on complex materials.

I don't necessarily keep things "secret" secret, I just got hassled by trolls so much that I refuse to discuss anything that suggests "science" and real "research" online. This isn't a peer review journal and I'm not putting together real research papers. The people who ask for scientific support in general (although probably not from a position any scientific education) are least likely to be convinced by anything credibly feasible for a small shop to produce.

I don't use sound waves. If something is really sleepy I might hit it with a vibrator for a couple of minutes so I can tell what it's like warmed up a bit.

Eventually I'll get my new building set up and might be able to find time to do a video with high quality audio series on the changes from this and that. I could throw a tonerite comparison in there. Ultimately whether a change exists can be seen on a spectrogram, but whether it's good or not is an ear test and taste test. Should be audible on a video -- the changes can be quite dramatic overall. I just need time and initiative.

What "time" does is an interesting question. I suspect that cryogenically treating the wood would work to some extent, primarily to remove volatile constituents. Humidity cycling seems to change the wood physically. And vibration certainly does something, although the permanence of its effects I'm not understanding. Seems well established. Possibly fatigue of resistant parts. I imagine a chamber that did humidity cycling while vibrating with white or pink noise would be effective, if highly annoying.

I had a torture box using a heavy duty vibrator at one point. Even with soundproofing it was simply too loud! I like peace and quiet.

The subject is quite interesting, but attracts trolls. That's the real issue. No reasonable conversation can happen without various self-important trolls lacking credentials showing up and making a mess of things. I won't play.

Certainly instruments are sensitive. A nicely educated and rather perceptive friend of mine worked on violin bridges. He noticed that certain areas of the bridge correspond to certain runs of each string and to the crucial harmonics. That working those areas down slightly impacts the volume and clarity of the bowed notes, especially the projection and clarity of the low harmonics. I use this work all the time, every violin. I can get the clarity of a string refined in seconds though removing the tiniest sliver of wood. It's not a subtle effect whatsoever. Pumping large amounts of energy into an instrument should certainly have at least that effect.

Oh, that fellow was driven off the forums by one particular pumped up non-technical hater troll. And refuses to return.

And that's why I don't discuss science.

However, one doesn't need science to do a before and after on any of these effective techniques. Not exactly subtle on good instruments!

**strings777** · Jul-03-2012, 10:27am

The tonerite really does work...my Flatiron is now the loudest mandolin I own, and before the treatment, my other two mandolins were definitely louder. I'm a believer!

**SternART** · Jul-03-2012, 11:29am

I had good success with Roger Siminoff's dedamping process on two instruments.
You can read more here: http://www.siminoff.net/pages/simino...dedamping.html

**AlanN** · Jul-03-2012, 12:13pm

I remember talking to my pal Al (Bibey) about the tonerite thing years ago. He is a believer. I never have tried it, I'd be jealous of the gizmo ("Hey, how come YOU get all the time on the mandolin?")

**nobullmando74** · Jul-03-2012, 12:58pm

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I'm sure that the application of the tonerite to a 100 year old violin for a period of approximately 100 years will result in an instrument startlingly similar to the sound of a 200 year old violin.

**Mandophyte** · Jul-03-2012, 1:16pm

Dear All,

Some of you (especially OldSausage) may remember my post Opening Up - Science or Perception? of April 2009. Gosh have I really been a member that long?

I had thought that in it (or a similar) post somebody promised to do some scientific before and after measurements, but this didn't seem to happen. Maybe it will this time around.

**Pete Summers** · Jul-03-2012, 2:16pm

I have a feeling that if we all spent half as much time and effort practicing our instruments as is regularly spent in beating this dead horse, we'd all be Chris Thile. Nobody here is going to convince anybody else on this topic. I say, put it to rest already (though I do admit, hesitantly, that I still end up reading these posts. Like looking at a wreck on the freeway, I guess).