Opening a mandolin up with high SPLs.

[rounDSound]

I know there are products such as the tonerite, and that there's no replacement for good old fashioned playing time, but does anyone have any experience exposing a new instrument to high sound pressure levels in order to help open the instrument up? Might this have the same effect as the tonerite?

In addition to playing mandolin, I play guitar in a loud rock band (earplugs are a must!), and I was thinking that I might bring the mandolin along to band practice and put it in front of one of the big cabs. Surely an SVT running into a big 6x10 will get the top moving, or a cranked guitar tube amp.

Do you think there's any danger in this practice? Perhaps it would be possible to induce destructive vibrations into the instrument? Waste of time?

[OldSausage]

Waste of time. Just play it. At least you know for sure you can improve.

[greg_tsam]

As much as I want to believe in this I'm still a skeptic. Can the the excitation of the wood, glue and varnish molecules through the application of "high sound pressure levels" change the structure of those molecules and make them denser, more vibrant or ring clearer? Some swear it's not only possible but reproducible, yet, when asked for concrete, statistical, quantitative numbers it always degrades to a argument of subtlety and ear training and "try it for yourself". No offense to the believers among us but it seems like a "faith based" argument unable to be back up with scientific evidence.

There's the rub.

Some very accomplished professionals believe it's possible but can't verify it with any sort of clarity. Assuming they're correct, the difference is so subtle you must have a very educated ear to tell any difference. So for the rest of us it's just as good as rubbing snake oil on it and chanting Big Mon's name in a circle, around a fire, while listening to Rawhide.

[John Soper]

I play mandolin in a Rock & Roll band- fairly high-volume - usually run a piezo thru a Fishman to the soundboard for a mando-emulation sound. But mostly play rhythm and slide electric guitar, so the Collings MT-2 sits on a stand in front of the Fender Twin Reverb amp or a monitor speaker during our concerts. I have no scientific proof, but boy does it sound alive when played acoustically - even several weeks after our last gig.

And I have played the snot out of it in it's lifetime...

[greg_tsam]

So, has anyone ever taken an instrument in a controlled study and taken before and after sounds, analyzed the data and published it?

[OldSausage]

No

[Chip Booth]

I don't see any harm in subjecting a mandolin to some loud rock and roll. As to whether to not vibration can make a difference, who can say in your case, but I would suggest that anyone who says it does have an effect not has never played a number of brand new instruments after they have just been strung. I have played many of them, and heard and felt dramatic changes in tone. I don't mean subtle, I mean absolutely night and day differences occurring within just minutes or even instantaneously as something changes and comes together.

I have a fantastic sounding guitar that started life with a huge, heavy, hollow low mid range. Within about 15 minutes of whipping it like a dog that low mid thing settled down and became more balanced, but the high end just wasn't there. I played it hard for a week or two but the top end just wouldn't let loose. A friend loaned me a Tonerite and I put it on overnight. The next morning the guitar was a different beast, the high end had completely developed. I left the Tonerite on for another month and never noticed another shift in tone, but that first night was almost unbelievable.

I have had more than one mandolin that would "close down" when they hadn't been played. One in particular was so bad that it sounded and felt pretty much like a log until it was played for as much as an hour or more, and then it would just explode. The volume and responsiveness would increase so dramatically that on many occasions other people would remark about the change in the instrument. I know there is always the question of whether it is the player who adapts and "warms up" vs the instrument, but in this case I owned that mandolin for a year and the same thing happened every time I or someone else played it long enough.

Anecdotally, I have a friend who tried a Tonerite on a mandolin and he came to the conclusion that it did make some improvement in responsiveness but that it also developed a tone he didn't like as much. My theory about this is that it is unnatural for the instrument to vibrate at this level with just open strings, and this may develop certain frequencies stronger than others, unlike natural playing which occurs at many notes, in different keys, up and down the neck, etc.

[OldSausage]

As to whether to not vibration can make a difference, who can say in your case, but I would suggest that anyone who says it does have an effect not has never played a number of brand new instruments after they have just been strung. I have played many of them, and heard and felt dramatic changes in tone. I don't mean subtle, I mean absolutely night and day differences occurring within just minutes or even instantaneously as something changes and comes together.

Just to be clear, there is actually no-one who disputes that these kinds of changes frequently happen in brand new instruments.

[Mike Snyder]

Vibrating a wooden stringed instruments by various means can and does change their tonal qualities. There is data which tends to support the effects of vibration. I have no interest in researching this, help yourself. Whoever developed the data probably has no interest in putting it forth in a forum such as the cafe because of the rancor that resulted when they tried originally. Several folks are offering devices and services in the field. Believe what you will. I have used a tonerite and had very pleasing results. I have also played two sets of frets off of my mandolin and had good tonal improvement from that. The devices are useful, to my mind, for getting a new instrument over the hump or taking an instument which has hit a "plateau" on to the next level.

[OldSausage]

The best that can be said is that there are lots of plausible things that could affect the tone of your mandolin for all anyone knows. If you value personal anecdotes, there is practically nothing you can do to your mandolin that won't dramatically improve its tone.

[Mike Snyder]

Believe what you will. My anecdotes I'll keep to myself.
Your sense of humor is usually better,David.

[blueron]

Cynical skepticism versus unyielding, passionate fervour.

I'll retain my position right in the middle, on the fence, straddling the divide.

rm

[greg_tsam]

Cynical skepticism versus unyielding, passionate fervour.

I'll retain my position right in the middle, on the fence, straddling the divide.

rm

I love the doubting Thomas b/c they ask the unyielding, passionate fanatics to offer up proof to back up their passion. When they are able, everyone benefits including the fence riders. Especially the fence riders since they make up most of the populace. I am one of the skeptics asking for proof beyond the usual "it's there is you listen close enough" conjecture. I want to believe it but won't just b/c I want it.

I went searching the internet many times before and again tonight looking for clues. I came across a study micing up a guitar, before and after, and the results where inconclusive. No difference. 3 hour test. Many other sites doubted it but there are people saying it happens but never with any real evidence other than they heard a difference.

[Mike Bunting]

. Many other sites doubted it but there are people saying it happens but never with any real evidence other than they heard a difference. [/QUOTE]
But that is all that matters. There are many things that science can't measure.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Chip - "...that would "close down" when they hadn't been played ". My experience as well.One other factor that i've found that contributes to the tone - room temp.Very often,especially in the winter,i'll play my mandolin for an hour or so in a warm room,& suddenly,almost as though somebody's thrown a 'tone switch',the instrument just sounds 'full on'.There's a noticeable change in the volume & the bass becomes more full & woody. One or two other members on here have also noticed the same thing happening to theirs.
Going back to the OP's point - IMHO,simply subjecting the instrument to sonic vibrations does not truly replicate 'playing'. Yes,the instrument will vibrate & resonate,but not in the same manner that it will when being played hard.Playing an instrument regularly is still the best way to get it to 'open up' (IMHO),
Ivan

[re simmers]

I've owned 6 mandolins (nothing compared to most of you). The first 5 spent a lot of time in from of speakers listening to pounding electric bass. That was for about 25 years. I didn't really see much difference. That's not very scientific, though. I bought a Buckeye a few yrs ago and have not exposed it to the pounding bass in front of speakers.....only because I forgot - it just never crossed my mind - plus I was afraid the dog or cat would knock it over. The Buckeye is the best mandolin by far, and it continues to 'open up' more every 6 months or so..............well....I believe it does. That's it.....if YOU think it makes a difference, DO IT. And THAT is scientific.

Bob

[OldSausage]

That's it.....if YOU think it makes a difference, DO IT.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[Brutus1999]

1) There ARE many things that science can't measure precisely.

2) And there are EVEN MORE things that get measured inaccurately based on "uncontrolled" experimental design (feelings, hunches, guesstimates about sound, etc.)

I do know that if I take out a mandolin that I haven't played for a month (I know...I'm a BAD BOY and should practice more...), it sounds stiff. Sometimes I just THRASH, THRASH, THRASH on the open strings for about thirty seconds or more. After that, it does sound more "open" , more sustain, louder.

I don't know if it is just my ears (possibly) or some combination of the strings or how they are seated in the nut and bridge or whatever or maybe even the wood? Sure, vibrations make a difference. What KIND of vibrations and whether electronic devices do or don't work is another matter .......

[OldSausage]

I do know that if I take out a mandolin that I haven't played for a month (I know...I'm a BAD BOY and should practice more...), it sounds stiff. Sometimes I just THRASH, THRASH, THRASH on the open strings for about thirty seconds or more. After that, it does sound more "open" , more sustain, louder.

But is it a possibility (I'm not saying it has to be this, I'm just asking you to consider it) that it is you yourself who loosens up, and makes micro adjustments to the way you're playing during and after this period of thrashing. The reason I suggest this is that we already know very well that utterly minute adjustments by a player can make an enormous change to the sound of a mandolin (as easily demonstrated by having two different pickers play the same mandolin), whereas the claim that the mandolin changes in response to a thrashing is just slightly more extraordinary, and for some reason defies simple demonstration.

[KennyE]

I'm in the camp of putting my mandolin in front of the guitar amp/speakers on stage. To me it feels less stiff when we get to the mandolin songs. Even if it were proven that it has no real physical effect, it has a mental effect. And that works for me. I just have to remember to rock the volume pedal back so it doesn't start feeding back.

[Tommando]

Do you think there's any danger in this practice? Perhaps it would be possible to induce destructive vibrations into the instrument?

It could go deaf in it's old age and not be able to hear the acoustic instruments around it, but that could happen too if it sits next to a couple of banjos for long.

[JeffD]

As much as I want to believe in this I'm still a skeptic. Can the the excitation of the wood, glue and varnish molecules through the application of "high sound pressure levels" change the structure of those molecules and make them denser, more vibrant or ring clearer?

I can postulate a reasonable and pysically plausable explanation. Easily. But as to objective scientific proof, well nobody has done the science.

[greg_tsam]

I can postulate a reasonable and pysically plausable explanation. Easily. But as to objective scientific proof, well nobody has done the science.

That last part is what gets me.

[greg_tsam]

Humans learned a long time ago that if you took steel, heated it up , beat it into a shape, cooled it, heated it, beat on it, cooled it, repeat that , magically, the steel hardened. Later on we put some effort into figuring out what exactly was going on there and proved the science behind what we already knew to be true and we also gave it a name.

The warriors fighting with this new material didn't need to know the science behind or have some bookworm tell them that it worked. They just knew it did but couldn't give you any proof other than, It works.

This is exactly the same situation we have here with the exception that not everyone agrees it happens the way they think it happens. Is it the materials that change when exposed to sound? If they do change, why , and how, do they change back when that sound stimuli is removed. (Many people say the mando deadens if not played and wakes up when played again.) This implies the materials (wood, varnish, glue) are transitory in nature and change states when vibrations are applied.

I'm not trying to debunk this theory due to personal prejudice but more I want to believe it but can't get past the logic in my head. It's possible my logic is flawed, that my head is flawed and I'm looney tunes (Note - I do not play the banjer.)

3 main components are Wood, Varnish and Glue. Wood can breath, swell, shrink, erode but that's usually a moisture effect. The protect the wood varnish is applied. It's been said it breath's and gives off vapors and continues to cure for a few years. But it's meant to be hard and protect. Last, it's Glue. The stuff meant to hold things together and be strong. Hide glue may release if it gets to hot but does it change density as it dries. Yes I think it does. But will it change density when exposed to sound waves that the mandolin generates. Would any of these materials?

It's doubtful sound waves somehow transmogrify the mandolin from one state to the next. That's incredible. And highly unlikely. But I love magic so I'll leave it as possible until the science is done and we know better.

[SincereCorgi]

I was reading a violin forum, and somebody was asking about whether they could use a Tonerite to make their 100-year-old violin sound like a 200-year-old violin... kind of puts an interesting slant on things.