JazzMando Jazz chords

[jmr_jmr]

Looking at the posts, there seems to be a nice relationship between the jazzmando folk and the mandoCafe people in these posts…so I’d like to ask some questions about theory brought up on page: http://www.jazzmando.com/ii_v7_i_home_positions.shtml

One of the things that intrigues me about the mandolin (more than the guitar, though I could always force myself to think in mandolin terms) is that (because it has less strings) when generating complex chords one is always making decisions regarding which notes to leave out; which inversions to use, etc.

Question: If you use a program such as Chord Designer (Reverse Chord Generator) http://www.chorderator.com/cgi-bin/d...++&tuning=GDAE and plug in, for instance, the Fm9 chord pictured in the jazzmando page it lists that chord’s possible chord names as ONLY: Csus4/G#, Fmadd2/G#, G#maj7no5add6, and G7sus4no5/G# - not Fm9. (One possible reason is that the Ab [b3] seems important to a minor F chord). I assume that reverse chord generator programs automatically assume that one of the notes in the chord is the root (Key note) and that taking the tact of eliminating the root tone from a chord (since another instrument may be supplying it), something mandolin players do routinely, could really throw these programs into a tailspin. But for me the question arises: What do I call a chordal note arrangement I devise on the mandolin? It would be a lot easier remembering the chord to be a Fm9 rather than a Csus4/G#, Fmadd2/G#, G#maj7no5add6, or G7sus4no5/G# but the naming seems to get fairly random (having more to do with the key one wants to play in and the notes one wants to eliminate) the more “interesting” the chord gets.

Can someone set me straight on this?

Thanks

[jmr_jmr]

(oops, I'm replying so as to "subscribe to the thread")

[greg_tsam]

I'm wondering why you started two threads saying the same thing but I'm guessing your new to posting in forums. BTW, when you create a thread you're automatically subscribed. You can also go up to the first box and click thread tools and select subscribe to thread in case you want to subscribe and not post.

Sorry but I can't answer that question. Naming conventions give me a headache.

[mrmando]

You need to learn enough theory to spell out your chords and not depend on software to do it for you. Here's the chord you are talking about:


If you understood theory you would know that you should flush any software calling this Fmadd2/G#, for two reasons: 1) enharmonically, it's simply incorrect to refer to the A-flat in an Fm chord as G-sharp; 2) the added G in this voicing is a ninth higher than the root, making it an Fm9. If it were a second above the root, then we might think about calling it an add2. Any software program that can't make these distinctions is essentially worthless.

As for which notes to eliminate, the classical/formal approach stipulates that the fifth is first to go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_chord

But it would be hard to voice this chord on the mandolin without the fifth if you wanted to keep the high G where it is. Ted's voicing eliminates the seventh instead, which is a good second choice. On the mandolin, it's usually safe to assume somebody else in the ensemble will hit the root, so you can go against convention and leave the root out if you like. You could start with Ted's voicing and drop the F to an E-flat -- leaving out the root but putting the seventh back in. The notes would be the same as an AbM7 chord, but as long as the bass, guitar or piano hits an F, you're still OK.

[jmr_jmr]

So that no one will be confused, the two threads that I have posted (JazzMando Jazz chords and JazzMando 3-string Jazz Chords) refer to the same page (url) but pose totally different questions. Read past the first sentence to find out why.

But to respond to the reply to this post, thanks for including the diagram.

I do know music theory well enough to know that the G# should have been called a Ab. But I gave the program the benefit of the doubt on this point (I've used advanced tablature programs that have difficulty with the concept!).

Question 1: Can you recommend a chord designation/reversal program that does, in your opinion, provide better chord naming. Or could it be that choosing to remove (expected) notes from a chord essentially renders all of these programs useless.

More interesting, and beyond my knowledge of music theory [I actually thought it was more a matter of music practice than theory (i.e., decisions musicians make based on the sound and on what other musicians will probably be covering), but I'm glad to learn that delving deeper into the theory might help me in this regard.] is what you say in your last paragraph.

Question 2: If, as you suggest, I drop the F to an Eb I can see that this works as Fm9. But I don't understand how this configuration would be the same as an Abm7 which I thought would be How does the previous configuration (Ab, Eb, C, G) work as an Abm7?

Question 3: I'm sure you will explain about the Abm7, and I look forward to what you have to say. But this brings up another question. Why is it that a particular set of notes can be defined as more than one chord? (Or to put it another way, why isn't there one, and only one, chord associated with a particular set of notes.) What are the factors that would cause you to call the chord we have been talking about an "Abm7" in one context and a "Fm9" in another context?

[mrmando]

It's an AbM7, not an Abm7.

Many chords are closely related, so it's not a huge surprise that they can have more than one name. Deciding factors include the composition's tonal center, the mode, which note is the root, and the harmonic context (i.e., what other chords occur before and after the chord in question). EGBD, for example, is usually an Em7 if the E is in the bass, but can be a G6 if the G is in the bass. Or, consider ACEbGb. Is that an Adim7, a Cdim7, an Ebdim7, or a Gbdim7? Well, it could be any of them, depending on the factors I have mentioned. With the particular chord you asked about, it's an Fm9 if somebody in the group is playing an F underneath it. If instead they're playing an Ab, C, Eb or G, then it's an AbM7.

I really doubt it would be too much of a programming hit to define correct enharmonic expressions of the constituent notes in a collection of chords in a software program. But it might be more difficult to convince the software company that it will sell more software if it fixes the bug. Paradoxically, if you are the sort of person who is bothered by nonsense like Fmadd2/G#, you are likely to also be the sort of person who doesn't need the software.

I don't recommend any chord-generator software. I recommend learning to spell chords and then finding the notes you need on your fretboard. John Baxter's MandoZine chord book is pretty good, if it's still in print.

[Jimdalf]

Or to put it another way, why isn't there one, and only one, chord associated with a particular set of notes.

I think you'll enjoy diminished seventh chords, if you haven't already come across them.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Question 3: I'm sure you will explain about the Abm7, and I look forward to what you have to say. But this brings up another question. Why is it that a particular set of notes can be defined as more than one chord? (Or to put it another way, why isn't there one, and only one, chord associated with a particular set of notes.) What are the factors that would cause you to call the chord we have been talking about an "Abm7" in one context and a "Fm9" in another context?

Technically, the shape in question should be a Fm add9/Ab, since there is no 7th in the chord, and the root is not in the bass. This is what a chord recognizing program might output. However, many chord charts are written by players with the assumption that you will be playing with others, or that you just want to suggest the chord without fully spelling it. So the 'bass' note on mandolin is usually not considered important, unless you are playing solo. If you are playing with other instruments, it becomes more about what voicing and sound you want to add to the mix. This leads to many names for the same shape, and many shapes for the same name!

Cheers
MRT

[jmr_jmr]

I hoped this thread would be as interesting as it's become (to me). My purpose for posing the question is not that I feel I NEED to be immersed in the theory-of-the-matter when I'm playing but that I want to be conversant in the language that goes on around what I might be doing when playing with other people AND because attaching a name to a shape makes it a whole lot easier to remember that shape.

Question:
Taking the chord "Adim7, a Cdim7, an Ebdim7, or a Gbdim7"...

If I were playing a particular tune and applied that chord shape, and one of the members of the group were to ask me: "What was that chord you played?"
. a) Is there only ONE CORRECT ANSWER to the question namely "Adim7, Cdim7, Ebdim7, OR Gbdim7" or
. b) Am I saying something meaningfully different and musically relevant if I say "Adim7" or (if I say) "Cdim7", or (if I say) "Ebdim7", or (if I say) "Gbdim7"

[Pete Martin]

If you want to study Jazz theory, Mark Levines book "Jazz Theory" (good name, eh???) is excellent.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Question:
Taking the chord "Adim7, a Cdim7, an Ebdim7, or a Gbdim7"...

If I were playing a particular tune and applied that chord shape, and one of the members of the group were to ask me: "What was that chord you played?"
. a) Is there only ONE CORRECT ANSWER to the question namely "Adim7, Cdim7, Ebdim7, OR Gbdim7" or
. b) Am I saying something meaningfully different and musically relevant if I say "Adim7" or (if I say) "Cdim7", or (if I say) "Ebdim7", or (if I say) "Gbdim7"

Sometimes there is one correct answer, other times it is ambiguous. The naming conventions are pretty specific when the section of music is tonal, but even then some people might interpret it one way while others may disagree. The most basic function of a dim7 chord is as a substitute for the dominant 7th chord. Generally, I would see what the dim7 chord is resolving to as a starting point. If you can spell the dim7 using the note a half-step below the resolving chord, then I'd use that. For example, if you have ?dim7 resolving to an F chord, and the dim7 has an E note in it, then I'd call it an Edim7, and not a G, Bb, or C# dim7. The letter that names the dim7 chord would be the leading tone of the cadence, and that's the most common way it's used. Another way to think of it is that the dim7 chord is the top 4 notes of a 7-flat9 chord (meaning, no root). So if you have a C7-flat9, the notes are C E G Bb Db, and notice that E G Bb Db is an Edim7. Since A C7b9 usually resolves to an F, so typically would the Edim7.

Another common thing you see is that since the dim7 chord is symmetric (i.e., same four notes can be used in 4 different ways), you can use it to switch tonal centers. What might seem like a Edim7 because you are in F might actually be called a Gdim7 if the chord resolves to an Ab, for example.

If you have a dim7 that doesn't fit that pattern, then you have to work harder to see what's going on, but many seem to be substitutes for the V7 chord, so that can take you far. Sometimes false resolutions and chord substitutions can really make things interesting, but that's getting out into the weeds a bit.

Cheers
MRT

[groveland]

No better way to spend a Saturday evening.

I think it's easy to see why a chord-naming app may only be so good, and it's easy to see why the app's author might bail when maybe 80% accuracy is achieved - It's diminishing returns. Plus, when you get right down to it, the rules are squishier than maybe we think, and the context definitely needs to be known to name a chord.

Sure, Fm(add2)/G# is just wrong with its G and G#. Some things might not be so clear cut, though.

For example, an A#13 chord is the V chord of D# major. But is there such thing as A#13(#11) ? It has A#/Bb C D E F G G#/Ab in it. That's every note from the F melodic minor scale. So, is Bb13(#11) correct and A#13(#11) incorrect?

And like someone said, if you can effectively argue with the chord-naming app, you don't need a chord naming app!

[Ted Eschliman]

Always like to remind my readers, there's a reason they call it Music Theory.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

For example, an A#13 chord is the V chord of D# major. But is there such thing as A#13(#11) ? It has A#/Bb C D E F G G#/Ab in it. That's every note from the F melodic minor scale. So, is Bb13(#11) correct and A#13(#11) incorrect?

Sure there's such a thing. But really unlikely to be used. Still, any thing is possible. You can have an A###maj13(#11)(#9)(#5) if you want. Quadruple sharps and all, but it's theoretically possible. It's just a matter of enharmonic spellings. The A#13#11 would have all notes sharped, and a few double sharped, so it would not really have the notes of the F minor melodic minor scale, but the E# melodic minor scale (one of my favorites! not.) But I can't think of any compositional situation where you'd get so far out on sharps that you'd use the A#13 instead of the Bb13.

Cheers
MRT

[groveland]

Thanks, Mark, for so eloquently making the points: (1) Context is everything in naming, and, (2) It's hardly worth it to develop software to go there!