Tuners (tuning machines)

[FatBear]

I have only been playing for a year. I bought a Big Muddy mandolin last June. By March of this year (2012) I was feeling like the instrument had problems. I took it to Chris Camp in Escondido (http://chriscamp.com/campmusic/) and he adjusted the nut and put on some good strings. The E string varied from .005 to .020 inches and the G string was dead. Now it really sings. I am very happy with it.

He also said that the tuners on my MD-0w are really cheap. Like $2/each cheap at OEM prices. That's nothing against Big Muddy. They put Grover tuners on their nicer models, but I got the low end one because I was new to the mandolin and didn't know if I would keep playing. Chris said the tuners were working OK, but eventually would start having trouble holding their tuning.

OK, so now I cannot keep my A strings tuned together. One of them drifts, sometimes after one note, sometimes after one song. I do play every night, so I guess maybe this tuner is going bad.

So now on to my questions:

Does that make sense that the tuner is going bad or is there likely some other reason?

If I replace my tuners I would like to replace them with something that will last. I have found that Schaller and Grover tuners are within my price range (less than $100). Will either of these hold their tune well and not wear out for quite a few years?

I would also like something that will tune a little smoother than the cheap ones. Is that possible, or do you always have to fuss a lot with the knobs to get it in tune? (Sounds like an old Philco radio...)

Which would you recommend? Schaller, Grover, or what else?

I am currently 1100 miles from Escondido and will not be back until next fall. I would prefer to have Chris do it if I were there, but I can't wait that long to solve this problem. I am quite competent with tools and such. Will I have any trouble replacing my own tuners?

Anything else I need to consider?

I didn't know if this posting should go in the equipment section or the luthiers section. If I put it in the wrong place, can it be moved?

Thanks.

[sunburst]

Geared tuners don't slip. If the tuner will turn reasonably OK and you can get the strings in tune successfully, it is not the fault of the tuner if it won't stay in tune because the worm and pinion gears cannot turn backwards from string tension. Usually, strings that won't stay in tune result from tight nut slots, but there can be other causes.

[FatBear]

Well that certainly gives me something to think about. The problem is with one or both of the A strings, but I hadn't figured out which one. Maybe it really is both. They are both the same size and I presume the slot in the nut is the same size for both. But what I don't understand is how the problem can be getting worse. I would expect the slots to become looser with time, not tighter. Is there some way to lubricate the strings? What other causes might there be?
Thanks!

[FatBear]

BTW, As I recall Chris said the cheap tuners would wear, become loose, and make it harder to get the thing in tune. I don't think he said it would drift out of tune. That was probably my assumption. I'm just a newbie, after all.

[sunburst]

Yes, that is more likely what he said.
One thing that happens, as players develop their ears, is that they can tell they are out of tune more easily. Most of us can hear that a string is out of tune if it is about 3 cents sharp or flat. (Others can tell if it's about 1 cent off.) If the intonation is good enough to get all strings within 3 cents of exact equal temperament it will sound in tune to most of us. If the intonation is only that good (within 3 cents), we only have one cent to go until it sounds out of tune. We might not have noticed that when we started, but with experience and some ear training, we start to notice that our mandolin won't stay in tune, when actually is it our improved ability to hear that we are going out of tune. Also, if the bridge moves, as bridges often do with string changes and tuning, we can get closer and closer to the edges of our 3 cent window or get outside of it.
If you have the intonation checked and adjusted as needed, and have the nut slots checked for fit and correct height and adjusted as needed, the mandolin should tune well and stay in tune well (assuming accurate frets and good quality relatively new strings).

[mandroid]

Wear in a tuner is not like wear in a car, because it does not turn more than a few turns in a year.
most is at string changes..

so It takes a long time to be significant. example: Tuners put on in 1922..still work adequately.

[houseworker]

As everyone else has said, the fault won't be with the tuner, although it may well indicate a poor setup. Mandolins are best set up by luthiers who specialise in the instrument. If you tell us where you are, someone may be able to point you towards someone appropriate.

The E string varied from .005 to .020 inches

I'm not sure who told you this, but it sounds most improbable. As strings stretch they get thinner, never thicker.

It's normally the wound G and D strings that have the tendency to stick on the bridge or in the nut slots, but lubrication is easy - simply use a soft pencil to put graphite in the slots.

You'll probably find the best thing right now is have a bit of a play with those A strings yourself to try and find the cause of the difficulty. Then fit a complete new set of strings, graphiting the slots and lubricating the tuners as you go.

What specific strings are you using?

[Steve L]

If you have a stamped tailpiece, remove the cover and check the prongs. If a properly installed string is slipping, the tension could be prying up one of them.

[mandroid]

Good idea to back wind plain strings over itself as you wind up them on the tuner capstan.
and wound loops have been known to slip, not much to do then but get out another string.

[FatBear]

One thing that happens, as players develop their ears, is that they can tell they are out of tune more easily.

Yes, I have noticed that. But I tell you what, when two strings are almost the same, but not quite, it sure does grate on the ear! I honestly can't say for sure that it never did that before, but it sure seems like a recent problem.

Also, if the bridge moves, as bridges often do with string changes and tuning

The bridge can move on me? Hmmm. More to think about.

If you have the intonation checked and adjusted as needed

I'm not sure what this means. What is "intonation" and how do you adjust it?

and have the nut slots checked for fit and correct height and adjusted as needed, the mandolin should tune well and stay in tune well (assuming accurate frets and good quality relatively new strings).

Chris adjusted the height of the nut. He actually put a .040 shim under it. I don't remember if he did anything to the slots.

[FatBear]

Tuners put on in 1922..still work adequately.

I have a 1930s Vega mandolin banjo and those tuners do still work "adequately". They were better built than the tuners on my mandolin, but those tiny little knobs sure are hard to grip!

[FatBear]

As everyone else has said, the fault won't be with the tuner, although it may well indicate a poor setup. Mandolins are best set up by luthiers who specialise in the instrument.

I think Chris is very good. According to his website and from talking to him he has setup and repaired instruments for some pretty good musicians. (Doc Watson and Chet Atkins come to mind.) He does not specialize in mandolins, but he could sure play mine better than I can, so he is clearly familiar with them. He is a warranty service tech for Martin guitars and I think guitars are mostly what he does now, but I'm confident that he can do a good job.

The work he did last spring was sort of a preliminary run through. We both acknowledge that there will be more improvements to make. I know my mandolin is not a Gibson, but I like the sound of it. As my playing ability and ear improve, I may find that I out grow it, but I would really rather just improve and keep it. When it is in tune and when I hit the right notes I am very happy with it.

If you tell us where you are, someone may be able to point you towards someone appropriate.

I am in Scappoose, Oregon. I can't even find a mandolin teacher around here, so I doubt there will be a luthier. Besides, I think Chris is good and would prefer to stick with him even if I have to wait until December when we are back in southern CA for the winter. In this world of big companies and anonymity we forget the value of the people who we hire to do our work. In small business (and luthierie is a small business) loyalty is usually noticed and rewarded.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure who told you this, but it sounds most improbable.

Improbably, yes. Impossible, no. I have a lot of experience with measuring tools (having been a diesel mechanic and a manufacturing engineer, amongst other pursuits) and I watched him measure the strings with a digital caliper. He remeasured and remeasured and recalibrated his caliper and scratched his head until he finally decided that he wasn't going crazy. Both of the E strings measured this way and all other strings were pretty uniform, so his technique was fine. The strings were wacko. It's not really so surprising. They were probably cheap strings. If a wire pulling machine is wearing out, it is could put a varying pull on the wire as it is pulled through the die. That could result in wire of varying diameter or it could result in a uniform diameter but varying tensile strength. (In this case the diameter varied, because an E string would not start out at .010 and then expand to .020.) Such wire would not be sold for top quality strings, but would be put on bulk reels and sold cheap. The E strings were also extremely tight when in tune. So tight that I could barely press them against the frets. In fact, that is the problem that caused me to have the instrument looked at.

It's normally the wound G and D strings that have the tendency to stick on the bridge or in the nut slots, but lubrication is easy - simply use a soft pencil to put graphite in the slots.

That's what I would have thought, too. Just from an engineer's perspective, one would expect the bumpy wound strings to tend towards jerky tuning. I do see that on the banjo, but not with the new strings on the mandolin.

You'll probably find the best thing right now is have a bit of a play with those A strings yourself to try and find the cause of the difficulty. Then fit a complete new set of strings, graphiting the slots and lubricating the tuners as you go.
What specific strings are you using?

I will definitely try the pencil lead lubrication this very evening! Thanks for that tip.

My strings are D'Addario J73 Phosphor Bronze Light. E:.010, A:.014, D:.024, G:.038

We chose the light strings because I have no need or desire to play loud and hoping it would be easier for my newbie fingers to fret the strings. They sound very nice and well balanced and play very easily. They were new in April. I play almost every night for 45 minutes to an hour. Do you think they need replacing?

[FatBear]

If you have a stamped tailpiece, remove the cover and check the prongs. If a properly installed string is slipping, the tension could be prying up one of them.

It is an affordable American made instrument, so I assume it has a stamped tailpiece. :-) I will check it. Thanks for this suggestion.

[FatBear]

Good idea to back wind plain strings over itself as you wind up them on the tuner capstan.
and wound loops have been known to slip, not much to do then but get out another string.

I will try to find a picture of this method. I have not replaced my own strings before, so I'll have to learn how to do it, anyway.

I just looked at my strings on the tuners. It looks like the D and G strings were pulled through the hole, wound half way around the capstan, and then tucked beneath the first loop of string as it was wound. This would tend to hold it quite well, I think. The smaller strings are too small for my old eyes to see. I assume he did it the same way, but I would need to find a magnifying glass to know for sure. I will definitely check this when I lubricate them.

[sunburst]

What is "intonation" and how do you adjust it?

Intonation is "in tune-ness". It means that the strings, when fretted, sound the correct note; not unduly sharp or flat. Simple adjustments are done by moving the bridge to the correct position for the strings to fret in tune, and keeping it there. More complex adjustments can be done by filing or cutting away bits of the bridge and/or nut, but no need to get into any of that yet.

[Jim]

The A strings are the ones most people notice this on and there are a number of threads re out of tune A strings and why. There is a video available on changing strings which show the process but my brief discription is to put the string through the holeand then turn the peg so on the first turn the string passes above the end that sticks through the post after that the string winds below itself and winds down the post. This locks the string from slipping through the hole. Lubing the nut slots with graphite from a pencil is a good idea to do each time you change strings. Lastly remember to tune UP to pitch not down.

[FatBear]

Intonation is "in tune-ness". It means that the strings, when fretted, sound the correct note; not unduly sharp or flat. Simple adjustments are done by moving the bridge to the correct position for the strings to fret in tune, and keeping it there.

I do think this is a problem that I will need to address, though not a pressing one. I know that pressing a string to the 7th fret should sound the same note as the string above it, but mine tend to sound a bit sharp. The electronic tuner agrees with this. I figured that when I get some time (maybe in ten years or so when I can retire!) I will work on it. I think the bridge needs to be moved farther away from the nut to achieve proper intonation as you describe the term. The luthier did not fool with it last April because it was the first pass on a budget treatment. Now that I've decided I like the mandolin and want to keep it, I may pay to have it done if I don't get time to do it myself. It seems like the kind of thing that could be kind of fiddly and time consuming the first time you do it.

More complex adjustments can be done by filing or cutting away bits of the bridge and/or nut, but no need to get into any of that yet.

I doubt that I will ever be that particular. :-)

[FatBear]

I will look for the string changing video and other A string problem threads. I did look before, but maybe didn't search well because I couldn't find anything like that in page after page of search results. That description of how to wind on strings sounds very similar to how my larger ones are wound. I'm not sure if he did one pass or two above, before winding below the hole but it seems otherwise the same. I think the only way I will know on the smaller strings is to take them off and watch how they come off. I'll do this after I look at the video.

Are the strings that I described good ones?

[Jim]

J73s are good strings

[FatBear]

I loosened my A strings, lifted them out of the grooves in the nut, and rubbed a dull pencil back and forth across the grooves to put some graphite powder into them. Tuned back up and now they seem to be holding a tune. Nice fix! I will definitely keep that one in my bag of tricks.

[sunburst]

It works, but if the strings fit the slots in a good quality nut, no lubrication is necessary.

[DougC]

Light gauge strings, esp. non wound strings are harder to keep in tune. If you play with a heavy hand, the string on the bass side of the two A's will go flat earlier than the other. Mostly because down strokes are usually heavier or accented. Some folks upstroke pretty hard too but it is uncommon.

Also try to notice if they stay in tune after playing for a day or two. Often the slack will be pulled out of the capstan winding. (on the tuner.)

[houseworker]

I think Chris is very good. According to his website and from talking to him he has setup and repaired instruments for some pretty good musicians. (Doc Watson and Chet Atkins come to mind.) He does not specialize in mandolins, but he could sure play mine better than I can, so he is clearly familiar with them. He is a warranty service tech for Martin guitars and I think guitars are mostly what he does now, but I'm confident that he can do a good job.

The work he did last spring was sort of a preliminary run through. We both acknowledge that there will be more improvements to make. I know my mandolin is not a Gibson, but I like the sound of it.

I think Chris is good and would prefer to stick with him even if I have to wait until December when we are back in southern CA for the winter. In this world of big companies and anonymity we forget the value of the people who we hire to do our work. In small business (and luthierie is a small business) loyalty is usually noticed and rewarded.

I'm glad the graphite tip worked. J73s are fine strings (my personal favourites). How long they last will depend on how much sweat your hands give off, mine see me through a year or more. But they're cheap, so it's no problem replacing them when they go off.

I suspect you don't want this advice, but I'll try anyway. Any mandolin that has been set up by a luthier should have strings that are a proper fit to the nut and bridge, and should tune (and hold tune) properly. The bridge should have been set for the best intonation. That is not work in progress, it is the bare minimum you are entitled to expect from the outset. On top of that, a mandolin specialist will know and achieve the correct string height and neck relief for ease of playing. From your posting on another thread as well as this one, it sounds as though Chris failed to set up your mandolin to an acceptable basic standard. Mandolins are not guitars, and if I were in your shoes I'd be looking elsewhere next time you need work done.

This is the YouTube video I normally link to for instructions on changing strings.

[FatBear]

Mandolins are not guitars, and if I were in your shoes I'd be looking elsewhere next time you need work done.

Any suggestions of a good one near Scappoose, Oregon? :-) I can't even find an instructor nearby.

[mandroid]

Depends on what you mean by Nearby, Given, you are not that far from Portland.