Stringed instruments in school

[Jim]

In defence of HS band I have to say that my ability to count in music I owe to my years in school band. I think I knew it anyway but counting through rests ect. honed my ability to know when to start & stop, when my or someone elses break was over even if the melody wasn't being strickly adhered to. Alot of "musicians" I've played with and even more "singers" could really have benefitted from that training.

[Charlieshafer]

I'll certainly be one to defend a traditional education as taught by most schools. Let's forget the budget restraints, class sizes, and instruments taught for the moment and simply stick to Jim's argument above. For all those wanting some sort of improvisation or "follow your heart" stuff, you have to walk before you run. Being able to play accurately within a given context is simply and unavoidably the single most important skill in music. You can't improvise without theory, timing, technique, in short, everything. Anything less is just noodling, which is fine if that's what you want to do while sitting on a couch and watching the tube, but it's not improvising. As far composition, again, it takes a good few years of theory if you intend on composing anything more than a fiddle tune and adding a backing part. Again, that's fine, but it's not the sort of stuff an educator would be trying to teach.

There is an outlet for this less-formal training, and it's been used for generations, and it's called a garage band. It's the sort of environment where The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Bill Monroe and pretty much all popular/country forms of music sprang from. A bunch of guys thinking, "hey, we're pretty good, let's put something together." All it requires is a little motivation, and to blame a school for not providing that sort of motivation is pretty lame; it either comes from within or it doesn't.

[catmandu2]

I'll certainly be one to defend a traditional education as taught by most schools. Let's forget the budget restraints, class sizes, and instruments taught for the moment and simply stick to Jim's argument above. For all those wanting some sort of improvisation or "follow your heart" stuff, you have to walk before you run. Being able to play accurately within a given context is simply and unavoidably the single most important skill in music. You can't improvise without theory, timing, technique, in short, everything. Anything less is just noodling, which is fine if that's what you want to do while sitting on a couch and watching the tube, but it's not improvising. As far composition, again, it takes a good few years of theory if you intend on composing anything more than a fiddle tune and adding a backing part. Again, that's fine, but it's not the sort of stuff an educator would be trying to teach.

There is an outlet for this less-formal training, and it's been used for generations, and it's called a garage band. It's the sort of environment where The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Bill Monroe and pretty much all popular/country forms of music sprang from. A bunch of guys thinking, "hey, we're pretty good, let's put something together." All it requires is a little motivation, and to blame a school for not providing that sort of motivation is pretty lame; it either comes from within or it doesn't.

.

I'm not sure what you're saying Charlie. I don't think anyone could argue that fundamental musicianship and the skills which constitute such is, well fundamental. Are you drawing a line somehwere? Can noodling lead to improvisatory activity? Is the well-schooled and/or technically more accomplished necessarily more inclined to improvisatory inspiration and capability?

What improvisation (in its myriad forms) concerns mostly is creativity (a "primitive" blues player, for example?). Neither the tube nor the couch serves as any kind of boundary enabling delineation, as far as I can tell. Creativity is a whole nuther bag of fish, which certainly "academic" or formal tuition on an instrument can assist with. But I'm not sure that improvisatory skill and wherewital is necessarily dependent upon any one or more skill sets, formal or otherwise. I've known just too many kids with variations in creative abilities to theorize much about what skill sets are required. The whole "creativity" shebang is of immense interest to me; I think "creativity" and its correlates may be influenced well by cultural factors beyond the "classroom" as well

[Charlieshafer]

Yeah, maybe we're just splitting hairs here and missing where each other's coming from. My concept of improvisation is from my modern-jazz training in college, where knowledge of all the changes, chord structure, harmonics, etc was considered improv 101. Coming up with a melody line on the spot was fine, but it had to fit in within the chord structure, so at critical points of your melodic line, you could emphasis certain parts by completing chords or creating dissonances. And, most importantly, as you drew to an end of your solo, you had to finish with a sensible root note that the next guy could take off on.

Solo noodling is fine, and I do it most of the time now, trying to come up with little tunes and such, but it's more of a freestyle thing, and for some reason in my mind just doesn't seem as "serious." I don't want to imply I'm making perfect sense here, just formal improvisation within a context of a structured composition is different from just plain unstructured playing.

[multidon]

Couple of other points I wanted to make pertinent to this discussion but just didn't have time before. First, to the question of a student continuing their music beyond school. There is no reason why anyone can't. There are plenty of church choirs begging for members, and community choruses. Community bands and community orchestras too. If someone puts their instrument in the closet or stops singing after they get their diploma, it's that person's CHOICE. It's not for lack of opportunities. They are out there if one cares to look for them. I can't tell you how many times in my life, when meeting someone new who finds out I'm a music teacher, says to me something like this: I used to play an instrument. I quit. And I'm sorry I did. When I hear this, I always think, how sad. Music is something like foreign language. You have to use it or lose it. I had 3 years of German in high school. I don't remember a bit of it. But to me that's a bit different. I HAD to take a foreign language, no choice if you are going to college. But music is always a choice. That's why they call it an "elective" course.

Also, I don't know how schools are run in every state, but where I was the principal, among many other things, was considered the instructional leader of the school. He or she has a great deal of power in deciding what will or will not be taught. I proposed a guitar class in my school (for me to teach of course!) and it took me 6 years to convince my principal to try it. It was very successful. Eventually it morphed into a "Hands On Music" course where we had introductory lessons to guitar, electronic keyboard, and world percussion. The classes were chock full of playing by ear, creativity, and improvisation, and as one might expect, attracted many students who wanted music but didn't fit into the band/chorus/orchestra mold. It made me happy that our music program offered just about something for everyone. Persistence pays off if you can get the principal's ear.

Catmandu2, there is nothing wrong with being critical as long as it's constructive. I did object to your use of negatively charged terminology such as "submission" and "conformity". I demonstrated how the exact same qualities can be put in a positive light. And there have been some others on this thread who have been bashing public school music teachers, plain and simple. I don't know what else to call it. Whenever I hear someone tell a story about what a jerk their band director was, I always take that with a grain of salt. There are two sides to every story after all. Education is a complicated affair. You need good teachers, but also engaged students and involved parents. If anyone had a bad experience in a school music class, or any type of class for that matter, I would advise that person to look in the mirror and ask themselves if there was anything THEY could have done to make the situation any better.

Finally, I would like to AGAIN point out that we have gotten WAY off the original topic of why they don't have mandolins in schools. And maybe I'm part of the problem, but you will ALWAYS find me in the position of defending public schools, their music programs, and their music teachers. Maybe they aren't for everybody, but they do an awful lot of students an awful lot of good. The popularity and sheer numbers of students involved in school music programs speaks for itself.

[allenhopkins]

What music theory I know, other than what I've picked up from just playing, I got from a one-semester middle-school required music class. We learned how to read "notes," what the pitches of the different lines on the staff were (remember "Every Good Boy Does Fine"?), the difference between a major and a minor third interval, how to tell a quarter note from an eighth note, etc. I was also in both band and chorus, so I was "doing" as well as "learning," but that little music "orientation" -- which was followed by "wood shop," agriculture, and home economics -- gave me some tools that I'm still using.

Should we have had a middle school string band as well as a standard woodwind/brass/percussion band? Yeah, that would have been cool. Could Mr. Beach have taught it? Probably not; he was a trumpet player, who also taught every variety of instrument in the school band, from tympani to French horn, directed the band, marched with us during the summer, and taught piano during school vacations to keep up his income. Probably would have been out of his element teaching "chop" chords, and he was all our little rural school had.

Schools do what they can; if there happens to be a music teacher with a folk/Celtic/bluegrass background, he/she may add some of that to the mix (see my examples above). If not, there's a lot of "general music" knowledge to be imparted, learning about key and time signatures, tonic/subdominant/dominant chord structures, major vs. minor scales/keys, etc. Which any mandolinist could use in the future.

I no longer work square roots with a pencil, diagram English sentences, or use much of my high school Latin. Doubt I could replicate any of those chemical reactions that stunk up the lab so long ago. But I still use some of the musical stuff Bob Beach taught me in the late 1950's. Now I'm playing mandolin and other stringed instruments instead of my silver-plated student flute, but some of that middle-school pedagogy sticks with me today.

[mandoscotia]

Hello there

What an interesting discussion! I am a high school instrumental music teacher here in Nova Scotia, and I would like to add a few insights, if I may.

1. I think that teaching any instrument in school is a great idea. We do not have teacher training for mandolin players, but there is a bunch of guitar being taught in schools these days, at least here in NS. Our particular curriculum is designed around teaching music, not on teaching a particular instrument.
2. In terms of the idea that kids don't play their instruments after they leave school that is indeed true. Some don't, anyway. Some do, in community bands, university bands, etc. I will say that my primary objective as a music educator is not to produce professional musicians, or even amateur musicians. I am more concerned with teaching some core values that music can help with. An appreciation of beautiful things, an understanding of how hard it is to make something truly excellent, a sense of being part of a creative team, a sense of what personal discipline means. Life skills. In my opinion, this is really what high school is about. We teach "how to learn". I don't remember any of my high school chemistry, nor do I think that I use it on a daily basis, however I really had to work hard to learn it in high school, and learned how to learn things I find confusing and difficult. So I am really glad I took chemistry.
3. I am sceptical of those who believe that somehow learning to read music inhibits creativity (note that I am not saying that this idea is completely wrong. We all believe what we believe) I know as both a classically trained musician (whatever that means) and as an improvising folk musician that I personally benefit from all the skills I have worked to develop in any genre that I have studied. I do not believe that one can learn to improvise well if you do not have some basic technical and melodic skills, however you get them. Knowing the language of music helps communicate the ideas that make improvisation happen. Was it Louis Armstrong that said "you have to learn all the rules, and then forget them" (maybe Miles Davis) but note he didn’t say "don't learn the rules, just play notes"
4. Long post, but finally...I consider myself lucky to work in a school board that does not demand that I take my students to competitions, and I don't have to produce a marching band for football games. This means I get to do creative things with students that don't involve that kind of "specific music/deadline" process. I am free to do what I fancy, so in the past couple of years I have had the students:
Compose music for a visual arts festival around the theme of the Halifax Explosion
Collaborate with a local composer and professional clarinet player to produce a new piece based on Pakistani folk music (Quawalli)
Compose music for student made videos
Collaborate with a DJ to create a "concerto grosso" for wind ensemble and DJ
The important thing here is that I am not the only one who does this. There are music educators everywhere who are exploring as many was as possible to use music to teach youth how to be better people.
Here is a link to our DJ piece, if you are interested...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rdbIibd3kv8

Cheers

Nate
Charles P. Allen High School
Bedford NS

[Mandolin Mick]

Now this is an interesting thread!!! As somebody who has been on both sides of the fence ... high school band and Beatles tribute band ... classically trained and garage band ... Classical guitarist and Bluegrass mandolin freak ... you've got my attention!!!
I'm going to read through these posts and add my two cents later ...

[Charlieshafer]

Yeah, so this has gone way off-thread, but in an interesting way. As far as mandolins specifically, there is a place, but not necessarily a budget, or time. The closest you'll get in possible mainstream use of mandolins in schools (outside of the rare instance where a teacher plays mandolin, and wants to introduce it into his/her own school) is to give violinists a little chord theory. I have a bunch of really cheap old mandos from the 20's through the 50's which many have donated just for that purpose. Most of the kids will have a little fun, learn the magic of moveable chord shapes to give them more flexibility with double stops, but have no intention of switching from violin. I think the mandolin is one of those instruments you have to be inexorably drawn to; mainstream use; probably not going to happen.

[Bill Stokes]

I'll be stealing that Concerto Grosso idea, in some form, Mandoscotia. Very cool.

Most teachers assign work to their students. It's the other way around with me. Every year my students demand that we play certain tunes that I can't find arrangements for, so I have to write something.

Here's my middle school band; a one-minute clip from a parent's camera.

[Mandolin Mick]

I've often wondered this myself. Now, I say this being married to a teacher and having two adult daughters who are teachers as well. Much of what we do is based on the way it's always been done. Kids have to take math & science courses even though we know they won't use most of the knowledge. However, many of these kids will have no idea how to balance their bank account or how to fix their car, even though there's a 99% chance they'll have to deal with these things as adults. Go figure ...

[catmandu2]

What ARE the goals of Western education? Teaching and learning can range roughly between, say, traditional pedagogy among strict institutions requiring highly prescribed uniformity—to something on the order advocated by Terrance McKenna, for example, with a steady diet of Thelonious Monk and hallucinogens (not necessarily to be consumed simultaneously); our models of education are based more on “global” notions of academic standard and involve ideologic indoctrination on many levels. Other models are based more on local ideologies--customs, values, ecologies, sensibilities.

Among tribal cultures, knowledge can be transmitted “horizontally” and is more “folk” (locally) based. Compared with the Western tradition, where learning is often more abstract (compare the Western “classical”canon used in pedagogy—deriving from liturgical practice to actual ”abstraction” [non-programmatic, etc., repertoire]—to that of locally produced ceremony and custom)--we could assert that "Western" man is more inclined toward "abstraction" and sympathy --dreams, poetics, symbolism, metaphor--or "sophistication"?--for lack of better measures, but I think this would be a gross inaccuracy. While our model of advanced or accomplished improvisation is largely “jazz”-based (and “academic,” as it is often termed) it is but one approach to music and one model of improvisation.

Children in the US may be encouraged to extemporize melodies, rhythmic variation or choose unique instrumentation. Music begins with basic musical skills, and involves games and play. Seemingly, in school, the further we get from adolescence the more “accomplished” we become enabling increasing complexity and “sophistication”--is it any more creative, relevant, or meaningful? (outside of the “academic” environment). IS it more evocative? Does one inspire the imagination and determine creative capability and experience more than the other? What are our absolutes?--our parameters must be define in order to derive some kind of measure. But it's really about tradition and its considered measure of invention and "enhancement" upon preceding edifice--an historical approach. Is this right?


Someone recently wrote in their blog how they considered themself “unimportant” or lacking significance in the phenomenal world of musical endeavor, due to the fact that they did not compose, etc. But what about individual and local experience—is this not as valid or important?

I don’t feel it’s necessary to convey my personal account of my own musical development—I did so to qualify my perspective as I enjoyed benefit of two disparate systems of pedagogy in public school—both were made available to me through the district school, and I value both equally. (And FWIW, jazz is my favorite “genre”)

I am very interested to hear more from folks in regions outside of the US. What I'm thinking about here is not so much discrete music programs, Don, but the greater educational milieu from perspectives in my areas of interest.

I am free to do what I fancy

Thanks for yours Charles—your students are most lucky to be studying with you. To me, a teacher or mentor with this approach—is what appeals to me, and IMO probably yields opportunities for a more direct or “localized” teaching/learning exchange with the student--that is, sharing and facilitating experiences of personal meaning, and thereby necessarily comprising a unique relationship (thereby, presumably more significant ), as styles of learning are also of significance in educational experiences

[Kheath]

. I did object to your use of negatively charged terminology such as "submission" and "conformity". I demonstrated how the exact same qualities can be put in a positive light.....And there have been some others on this thread who have been bashing public school music teachers, plain and simple. I don't know what else to call it. Whenever I hear someone tell a story about what a jerk their band director was, I always take that with a grain of salt. There are two sides to every story after all... ask themselves if there was anything THEY could have done to make the situation any better

I assume this was directed at me since I was the only one who used the word jerk in referrence to a band director. One) as to conformity and submission what else do you call it when the child who wants to learn to play has been told, no you cant play that despite what we said earlier? Two), I am the first to admit that no piece of paper is so thin that it doesnt have 2 sides, yes I am quite sure there was great deal I could have done that would have increased my level of enjoyment, but as I stated I was playing an instrument I didnt want to play and had a jerk for for a band director, and oh yeah lets re-visit that shall we. This Band director that you will always defend, was fired 3 years later for grabbing a student around the neck and dragging him out of his chair and throwing him in the hallway because the student was having problems learning a complicated piece of music. So you can take that with a grain of what ever you like ...He was a jerk.

[multidon]

I assume this was directed at me since I was the only one who used the word jerk in referrence to a band director.

Kheath- I was not directing this specifically at you, if it sounded that way I apologize. You are not the only person on this thread to "bash", for lack of a better term, school music programs.

as to conformity and submission what else do you call it when the child who wants to learn to play has been told, no you cant play that despite what we said earlier?

As I said in an earlier post, what some might call submission I call learning respect for authority, and what some may call conformity I call learning to work as a team. At least, that is the intention of most good music teachers. All of the good ones I know try to look at things in the positive. Also, there are very good reasons for not letting every student who wants to play percussion do so. A concert band only needs a few. A band director is trying to put together a band, not a drum and bugle corps. Unfortunately, in order to have a successful band program, instrument balance has to be considered.

This Band director that you will always defend, was fired 3 years later for grabbing a student around the neck and dragging him out of his chair and throwing him in the hallway because the student was having problems learning a complicated piece of music. So you can take that with a grain of what ever you like ...He was a jerk.

Kheath, in your original post you just said your band director was a jerk without any sort of details or evidence. I did say that I will always defend music educators but notice the plural. I meant IN GENERAL and I would be in complete denial if I did not acknowledge that EVERY group contains a few bad apples, including music educators. I feel very bad for the fact that you obviously had a very negative experience with school music education. I have met SO MANY great music teachers in my career. I wish you had the opportunity to work with one of them. What you describe is an unfortunate situation. It is too bad that it seems to have soured you to music education in schools in general. At least, that's the way it seems to me. I sincerely hope I am wrong and that you are able to see all of the positive things the GOOD music teachers are giving to thousands upon thousands of children in this country.

[Kheath]

No apology necessary, looking back at my posts I am the one coming across as a jerk, for that I want to apologize. As for being down on school music programs, there is only one program I am down on and it was mine. My son has been in band for several years, in 3 different school districts (his mom likes to move), and they have all been top notch programs and he has always been quite happy with all of his experiences, from beginning band, through marching band, and now in the jazz band (where he is branching off from the trumpet into bass guitar, with the encouragement of his band director). So no not totally soured on music education and educators, I just got one of those bad apples you mentioned .....Kevin

[multidon]

Kheath, I am so happy to find out that your son is having a good band experience even if you didn't. You talked about instrument choice and not getting what you wanted, I'd like to tell a short version of my story. I told my dad I wanted to play saxophone. He said "that's nice. You're going to play the trumpet." I said "Why?" He said "Because we have one in the attic!". Turns out he played trumpet in band. I had no idea. Now it wasn't my first choice but I wanted to please my dad, so I became probably the worst trumpet player in my school's history. But I did love being in band. My second year my wonderful band director, sensing my problem, took me aside and said "I'd really like you to consider playing the baritone horn." I said "Why?" He said "I think you'd be really good at it. I need someone to play it. And you would get to play this brand new shiny school owned horn for free!". Now, I did like that the horn was new and shiny, and I knew my father would like the "free" part. Thus started a long, long career in low brass. I was much more successful on low brass and I have my music teacher to thank. He was probably thinking about his band's instrumentation needs primarily, but this was one of those "everybody wins" situations.

Again, I would like to comment that schools with well rounded music programs offer as much variety as possible. But the really good school programs offer orchestra, guitar, music appreciation, music theory, and even more. The more music offerings a school has, the more chance that every student will find a niche in music. I firmly believe that every child, and I do mean every child, can learn music. "Talent" is not a prerequisite, only a willingness to work hard and learn.

[Beanzy]

From what I observe there's a very simple reason why instruments such as violin are taught in many schools but mandolin is not. There are many outlets for those with violin, it can be used outside school in district orchestras that the school doesn't have to organise as they're already there. So the school choose the instrument with the established outlets for the children to use. There's an exam/grade structure available which the child can use to gain further recognition and can use as an addition to their other academic achievements. So the hours the child puts in to their music can give them a quantifiable return within the established structures. You're far more likely to get parents and academic institutions supporting an activity which gives both a life skill and a return which can be used on the academic scorecard. Whether this is perceived by others as ideal would be irrelevant to the parents and institutions involved. They will see their role as being to equip the child for the academic world as it is not to try to change that. It's the same with brass instruments as they have the band outlets available outside the school.

For many schools just to be able to offer any formal music education to their pupils is an achievement beyond what went before. When setting up their programmes they have to use every support available and plugging into established structures is one of those. It's as much about getting parent and education authority support as anything instrument specific.

Mandolins in school would be cool, but I think you'd need the local districts to have youth orchestras with mandolin and possibly a grades exam structure in place to get the parent / school to go for it. Not an issue for music savvy parents but perceived usefulness and achievement 'pathways' are a real issue for subject choice in education.

It's nice for us all to be able to encourage diverse instrumentation in our systems, but without the structures in place it's asking a lot of a music teacher or department to offer our weird 'little guitars' as an option. There's a very good example in the UK, but that's driven by the confidence and drive of one individual equipped with a bucket-load of confidence skill and professional courage.

Locally we're a bit luckier than the OP situation in that there are many outlets for string instruments in the form of orchestras, though there's definitely more opportunity for brass due to the number of mining town bands and jazz groups (surviving from the 40's & 50's showband tradition) which have been in the life blood of the place for so long.

[SincereCorgi]

One thing that nobody's mentioned is the fairly successful integration of the ukulele into the Canadian school system on a moderately large scale. Some details here: http://www.ukuleleintheclassroom.com/faq.htm

Also, with video goodness:

[B. T. Walker]

School districts all across south Texas westward to southern California have mariachi programs that are predominantly strings. Guitaron, guitar, vihuela, harp, and of course, violin all are important parts of mariachi. The kids in middle and high school that learn to play traditional music from northern Mexico can make a pretty nice chunk of change playing weddings, quinceaneras, and other gatherings. They are also wandering musicians in restaurants. And that's the work end of it. The rest of the time, they play other "regular" music, and have fun doing it.

I teach at a high school which works with the kids that have been in trouble with school or the law, are tatted up, pierced up, foul-mouthed, and on the fast track to parenthood, but who are not becoming high school dropouts. Many are desperately poor, speaking English at school and Spanish at home. Though a real part of our school district, our school didn't have the population (or money) to justify a music teacher. Yet we were still able to have a guitar class, begging and borrowing instruments from the middle school mariachi programs. Another teacher taught the class the last period of the day, but they were right next door to my class. We were a ready audience, and I almost always have a mando at school.

Our students are turned off by the traditional, be it band or mariachi, so for a number of kids in the course, this was their first formal music education. They learned a few chords and picked songs they liked that were reasonable beginner pieces. (Hotel California, The House of the Rising Sun, Stand By Me, Dear Prudence, Somewhere Over the Rainbow [Izzy version], Criminal, and Someone Like You [That's right: Britney Spears and Adele]-- part of their eclectic selection.) Thankfully, it meant no "Stairway to Heaven". Forty-five minutes a day, five days a week, for thirty-six weeks (give or take), and the ones that gave it any effort sounded pretty okay. Even the few that didn't try very hard got something positive out of it and liked it. At our school, we take small victories.

[Charlieshafer]

Nice, Brian, though after seeing that, I think your victories are far larger than you're willing to admit to. Great program, and I hope it keeps rockin' the guitaron. Is it worth trying to offer the reward of being able to tour locally once they hit a certain proficiency, or are economics and time constraints or lack of commitment simply to big a hurdle?

[Rex Hart]

School districts all across south Texas westward to southern California have mariachi programs that are predominantly strings. Guitaron, guitar, vihuela, harp, and of course, violin all are important parts of mariachi. The kids in middle and high school that learn to play traditional music from northern Mexico

I love this! I would like to see more school programs emphasize the music of their particular culture or region. I live in the Missouri Ozarks and we have a rich musical heritage which is peculiar to this area. The Carolina's and Kentucky, etc, all have their own particular styles. This is not to mention Irish/Celtic music and so many other different genres. Why not celebrate our heritage in the school music programs instead of all (or most all) schools emphasizing the same old songs that many of us felt should have been retired years ago. Again, not knocking our music teachers and educators. They are such a valuable asset to our schools and it takes a special person to teach music. I know, I failed miserably giving guitar lessons after the kids wanted to play Eddie Van Halen licks on the first lesson. I found I had very little patience. Kudo's to teachers!

[catmandu2]

That's great B.T., really wonderful

Why not celebrate our heritage in the school music programs instead of all (or most all) schools emphasizing the same old songs that many of us felt should have been retired years ago.

Forget who said it or in what context, but someone mentioned somewhere that, generally, hegemonies are "what's wrong in the world"

[WearyHobo]

Well I think I have an interesting position here. I work at a store that does band and orchestra rentals for area schools and after seeing how much kids really enjoy playing I'm always sad to hear about more music programs being cut or grossly underfunded. As other posters have said music and at least its appreciation is something that sticks with folks for a lifetime. Myself included. I got my start as a 6th grader playing my grandpas saxophone and continued on from there teaching myself drums outside of school so I could play with all my friends who were really getting into guitar (and were also in the schools band program. It's where we learned all our fundamentals!) and years later my soon wife to be would teach me how to play a guitar and these days I would consider myself a rabid Mandolinist.

I guess what I'm trying to say is whether a student sticks with their band instrument or orchestra instrument after they graduate they can come away from those class's at least understanding what it is to play an instrument and how difficult it can be so they develop a much greater appreciation for music, everything from classical to modern and in between. So if they do have genuine interest in pursuing it, it is one thing that can really turn that light on inside for them and sort of wake their spirit up to the joys of music.

Its also a great way for kids to spend their times these days as opposed to the million + electronic options they have. Computers and television are frying children's brains at an alarming rate so when I see them get excited about a saxophone or violin, I strongly encourage it and at the same time it brings me happiness because I know I am potentially getting someone started on their path of a lifetime of playing and enjoying music in a much greater way then just turning on the radio.

Not griping here but my encouragement is also fostered by the fact that my parents never showed any interest in my love for music and it is now my career. So I try to offer as much support for each student as I can because I know they may or may not be getting any recognition for their playing at home or at their school because most schools don't even have programs these days.

In our area Orchestra and Band programs are doing OK, but I would like to see more programs offered in and after school. Our store does offer free clinics from time to time for guitar and other things, and lately I have been trying to generate some interest in folk music clinics for Mandolin and Banjo as I think it can also be a good resource for older folks who still have an interest in learning a new instrument.

P.S Great thread btw, lots of interesting thought and opinions here. A very knowledgeable and friendly group here at the Cafe.