Stringed instruments in school

[catmandu2]

Yes we all do to one degree or another influence and educate. One reason why I emphasize the point--i'm a bit evangelical about sharing the good word about music. I should clarify also the reason for my critique: I have different aspirations for students, for music, society and thus for education--than i see manifested. I WOULD like an emphasis in public music education in fostering lifelong involvement, and an increasing prevalence of art and imagination in society moreover

More pickly, the institution produces environments where classical/academic music IS seen as "legit" and countless musical instruments remain in mothballs unplayed

[Charlieshafer]

Ya know, there's more around than you might think, and it's based on the skills and proclivities of individual music teachers:

Frontier Middle School Fiddlers

East Rochester (HS) Celtic Music Society

Jessica Boss Collins at Canandaigua Middle School has had a fiddle club for students, and I'm sure there are others in my area of which I'm not aware. There are quite a few music teachers who played and are playing forms of folk and acoustic music, and bring that background to their work in the schools. Guess it's usually outside the established music curriculum, but it's there for those who take advantage of it.

That's great to hear. More than a few "hard-core" Suzuki/classical teachers around here are realizing that they need to pay heed to the folk traditions, be it hard-core Scots fiddling or more relaxed old-time, as a way to keep some students interested. They're also realizing that organizing the occasional fiddle jam does wonders for ear training, so hopefully we'll see more and more programs like the ones Alan has linked to. Nice links, Alan!

[Randi Gormley]

I'm leery of expecting people to become fans of something just because they've been exposed to it. I adore Dickens, for instance, and I really enjoyed reading A Tale of Two Cities in high school, but I've never re-read it because it was assigned school work even though I've read Dickens forever and continue to do so. I've seen Idunnohowmany "reading is fun" initiatives stumble and fall because of human nature -- you can't mandate "fun" or "enjoyment" or even, heavens, "lifelong learning." Any time you place emphasis on mandatory enjoyment your initiative is doomed to failure from what I can see. People, especially kids, are contrarians. It's too easy for teachers to get over enthusiastic and begin demanding specific levels of achievement before a kid can participate. I've known music teachers who suggest a kid drop music because "they're not serious enough about practicing" thereby reducing a thriving music program to a handful of kids planning to attend Julliard and nobody else ... I say let kids discover folk music in their own time and in their own way -- outside of school -- and that way they may actually appreciate it.

[catmandu2]

I'm leery of expecting people to become fans of something just because they've been exposed to it. I adore Dickens, for instance, and I really enjoyed reading A Tale of Two Cities in high school, but I've never re-read it because it was assigned school work even though I've read Dickens forever and continue to do so. I've seen Idunnohowmany "reading is fun" initiatives stumble and fall because of human nature -- you can't mandate "fun" or "enjoyment" or even, heavens, "lifelong learning." Any time you place emphasis on mandatory enjoyment your initiative is doomed to failure from what I can see. People, especially kids, are contrarians. It's too easy for teachers to get over enthusiastic and begin demanding specific levels of achievement before a kid can participate. I've known music teachers who suggest a kid drop music because "they're not serious enough about practicing" thereby reducing a thriving music program to a handful of kids planning to attend Julliard and nobody else ... I say let kids discover folk music in their own time and in their own way -- outside of school -- and that way they may actually appreciate it.

Well of course it can be more than simply "exposure" (as in the case of Native American tribes, for example, where music and dance, for instance, is socially integral, or other cultures with similar values and traditions). Of course children rebel everwhere, but the aspects I'm considering would generally be more immersion than exposure

Also, we work in conjunction with school and faculty with many of our kids' activities--so there's much crossover--as well as many other programs the kids enjoy in school (including musical plays, games, and other "non-didactic" forms of musical instruction) that the kids enjoy because they're enjoyable, relevant, etc. IMO, the didactic style of instruction is often a major impediment

So, the community and the school are integrated, which is really the goal for us

[Charlieshafer]

So, the community and the school are integrated, which is really the goal for us

That is the ticket, for sure. Music has to be presented as a simple way of life, not some exercise in practice. And Randi's right, just because you're exposed to it doesn't mean it'll stick (think liver and onions), but exposure never hurts. As many festivals and jams as my daughter has sat in on, when we're not looking, it's back to Partita #3, Franck, and all the other classics. But, with exposure, when she's off to college and beyond, if she's ever with a bunch of folks who want to sit back and play some fiddle tunes, she's able to. And if she doesn't choose to play "hillbilly music", as she's fond of needling us, so what? She's got a working knowledge of folk styles from around the world, and she's just more adept culturally because of it.

The key is to develop fans of music in general, playing music more specifically, and wherever that leads someone is just great. Some of the most technically skilled guitarists I've heard never play for anyone specifically, but just noodle in their homes as a form of stress relief. They'll play with friends if asked, but they're never looking for a jam. So who cares what they play, as long as they get the chance to play something.

[KristinEliza]

As stated in many of the previous posts, my goal as a music educator (despite my curriculum requirements) is not to produce a bunch of Joshua Bells and Pablo Casals...it's to give my students exposure and an appreciation of music...all kinds. In my 16 years of teaching, I've only had 3 students choose a career in music.

There are many opportunities for grants to help with funding. I guess I just need to find the time to start writing them!

And as far as scheduling...heck...if no students can make the rehearsal/jam, at least I can use that time to practice my mandolin!

[Kheath]

Maybe I am, as someones stated earlier, a contrarian. But school killed music for me. When I was coming up in Austin, as a sixth grader you got to "choose" one elective from a choice of 2, band or choir. Since my voice was breaking at the time, and I was embarassed enough talking I chose band.
Also the band directors had stacked the deck somewhat, touring all the elementary schools at the end of the 5th grade year showing off all the instruments and doing some pretty nifty (to an 11 year old ) riffs on various things.
So my folks and i get a letter in June saying show up at such and such a time at the Middle school band hall and pick the instrument you want to play.
Now, my dad was a drummer and my cousin who was a couple of years older was a drummer and I grew up with the skins, we already had all the equipment so I was excited i was gonna be a real drummer just like my Dad!
So we went to "tryouts", and I told the band director I wanted to play percussion, and was immediately crushed when he said "I'm sorry we have met our quota of 6th grade percussion students", so I tried my wayyyyy distant 2nd choice the saxophone (thinking I could still be a rocker in my Dad's band and play the sax, right?) and got the same answer.
The upshot of it was I got stuck with the trombone, and I hated it! The trombone teacher was a jerk, ex military band, still thought he was a DI kind of instructor. I was never so glad to see the end of that school year when I could drop the band for athletics. I am not sure how this pertains to the OP, but I wanted to give an alternative perspective to the "carries a music eduation with them" statement. Yep I carried it with me, right next to the grudge it created..........Kevin

[Charlieshafer]

There are many opportunities for grants to help with funding. I guess I just need to find the time to start writing them!

And as far as scheduling...heck...if no students can make the rehearsal/jam, at least I can use that time to practice my mandolin!

Grants! Run Away! I met with a grant-writing guy for our program (writing grants takes way too long yourself, forget practice time) and he explained how with the great grant we might get, we'd take off into the big-time, and be solvent and then of course have to keep careful accounting records, file paperwork, be responsible, act normally, etc, and in the end it sounded like so much work it wasn't worth it, at least to me. When we need a cash infusion to pay for workshops and I'm low on funds myself, I just tap a few local businesses/benefactors who I deal with on a business level and get them to chip in as sponsors. When we do the workshops, they're open to the public, and free, and it's no surprise that a large number of people slink in and out without so much as a "thanks," BUT then there's the parent of a kid who was so turned on by the experience that they slip a check for a couple hundred bucks in your pocket to help pay for the next one. Once we started with the big-name workshops years back, the program sort of funds itself, but it seems like at the end of the year, I'm always chipping in a small bit to get back to zero. Just a little more energy spent fund-raising, and that wouldn't even be an issue.

[Philphool]

No one has mentioned the JAM program in some Virginia/North Carolina schools. The program is mostly (?entirely) privately funded and offerred as an option to those interested. Here's a link.

The proceeds from the Wayne Henderson Festival every June goes to support this program.

Doesn't expose ALL kids to music, but at least gives some kids a chance to really learn to play when they might otherwise have no good chance.

[KristinEliza]

Just a little more energy spent fund-raising, and that wouldn't even be an issue.

Fundraising! Run away!

[KristinEliza]

Phil - checked out the JAM website...thanks for the heads-up. I'm looking into it. There's not much going on in the SE side of the state, so this may help!

[HddnKat]

More's the pity, but from 6th grade on here in Texas, the objective of the school's Band program is to teach students to play in , well, band - not to trust their ear, not to improvise. If a student has any innate musical talent, unless they have other outlets to play at home or other places, they will become frustrated and end up quitting. A friend of mine is a lifelong elementary music teacher, and he really rants about this. He says - what would you think of an art class that only taught students how to copy existing works of other artists? and yet that is exactly what we do in middle and high school music programs. I think what we need to recognize is that Band is just like any other sport (football, basketball, volleyball) - there are competitions and rules - and in order to succeed a band director has to do well in those competitions. This is not and probably should not be thought of as art - it is competition set to music. Hopefully the side benefit of learning to read music will render the participants able at some point to pursue music for fun and art - but that is not the objective of the high school band program. (Besides you can't march a mando, although I have seen electric bass marched at the Rice University MOB - with a band assistant following behind pushing the amp!!)

[Kheath]

. If a student has any innate musical talent, unless they have other outlets to play at home or other places, they will become frustrated and end up quitting.

Which, as I noted, is exactly what happened to me. Forced to play an instrument I didnt want to play, forced to play "band" music, and a jerk of a band director. If I hadnt come frm a family of creative people any love of music I had might have been lost....Kevin

[Jim]

My son played electric bass guitar in middle school band including marching in a couple parades with an amp in a wagon. High school wasn't interested (my son wasn't too interested in High school either) and there was no place in the HS band program for electric bass. There were extra curicular programs for guitar at his school. The band at his school was about marching at football games and that's about it. I would love to see improvisational music taught in public school, but, until the school system can succeed in teaching all it's students to read I think it's a secondary consideration. I do believe in a well rounded education and feel that it is schools place to expose students to a variety of things to get their interest. I think the horns/woodwinds focus though rooted in the music of past generations is also because they are a little easier to teach, more linear in nature & no chords. I doubt a better/more inclusive band program would have kept my son in HS though a good teacher or 2 might have. He dropped out but continued to play music ( often music & literature were the only good conection we had), and he is now working on his masters in chemistry. The school system on Colo. was not going to be flexable for one student and I'm not saying they should be but the system only works for some. The rest of us have to persue our education through other resources. Reading skills are the one thing that truly makes that possible.

[catmandu2]

Yes there's lots to consider--as you've raised, we might question the goals of public education in broader context (its ultimate function may be less imparting "knowledge" than to foster submission and conformity); music programs may be no more "ineffective" than other academics. I think the real concern is the general philosophy of public education, and music programs merely symptomatic of the larger problem.

[Mandoviol]

My kids elementary school starts strings (violin, viola, cello, bass) in 3rd grade and band (woodwinds, brass, percussion) in 4rth. I think this varies by school district and budget. I'll also submit, it is easier to tune a French Horn than a cello and the tuning is more stable.

I'm the product of a program not unlike Jamie's daughter; I went to school in Northern Virginia, and they started us off on strings in 4th grade, winds/"band" instruments in 5th. Is that because we Orch Dorks were so hardcore that we needed an extra year? Probably. Either that, or they were waiting for us to build lung capacity in the interim.

Unlike other schools' programs, though, I'm willing to bet that I got more of a grounding in folk sounds in my formative musical years because our orchestra teacher was/is a fiddler at heart. We did a lot of orchestral arrangements of trad tunes, which was dang nice for me; it's probably one of the reasons why I play Bluegrass and Celtic and Old-Time music now rather than merely staying in the Classical idiom.

[Mandoviol]

Which, as I noted, is exactly what happened to me. Forced to play an instrument I didnt want to play, forced to play "band" music, and a jerk of a band director. If I hadnt come frm a family of creative people any love of music I had might have been lost....Kevin

Should've joined us Orch Dorks....

[Mandoviol]

As stated in many of the previous posts, my goal as a music educator (despite my curriculum requirements) is not to produce a bunch of Joshua Bells and Pablo Casals...it's to give my students exposure and an appreciation of music...all kinds. In my 16 years of teaching, I've only had 3 students choose a career in music.

This is the sort of approach I love; far too many music teachers, I feel, focus on getting students to practice the grand "classic" repertoire that cranked out all the great soloists of the last 120 years (at least, this is how I feel about violin teachers). It's like if you don't nail those Wolfhart etudes to a T, you aren't going to make it anywhere, and though this works for some students, it doesn't for everyone. And that's what annoyed me about my private lessons growing up. I hated (and still don't have any great love for) etudes; they're boring and not the sort of thing you'd perform with other people. I wanted to play fiddle tunes and things I could have fun with--my teacher (bless her heart) was of a different school of thought and couldn't understand that--it was etudes, etudes, etudes. I didn't get any better and didn't enjoy it, so I stopped the private lesson thing and just played in school, and played what I wanted to play. The diversified musical approach lets the student have fun with what they learn, and really pick out a musical niche (or niches) to fit in. And it makes for better-educated listeners. I wouldnt' be interested in half the styles of music I listen to/play if it wasn't for diversified learning.

Keep up the good work!

[Mandoviol]

More pickly, the institution produces environments where classical/academic music IS seen as "legit" and countless musical instruments remain in mothballs unplayed

Amen.

[multidon]

Yes there's lots to consider--as you've raised, we might question the goals of public education in broader context (its ultimate function may be less imparting "knowledge" than to foster submission and conformity); music programs may be no more "ineffective" than other academics. I think the real concern is the general philosophy of public education, and music programs merely symptomatic of the larger problem.

It would seem that this thread has unfortunately morphed from "Why don't they teach mandolin in school?" into complaining about what's wrong with school music programs and venting about poor experiences both personal and observational. It is a shame that there is so much negativity about school music programs. But it is possible to frame anything in a positive or negative way. For example, you say "submission" and "conformity", which nobody wants their children to learn. I say "learning to work as a team" and "respect for authority", which everyone wants their children to learn. Same things phrased in different ways. Shows you the power of words, doesn't it?

Part of the problem here is that the traditional band, orchestra, chorus groups in schools are large groups taught by professionals with very strong classical training. Many professional music educators in my experience are fine classical performers as well. When you major in music education, the college's expectation is that you are a musician first and foremost, who just happens to be an educator. The performance competencies are the same as those concentrating on performance only. So those educators bring a classical mind set to their teaching. That means playing what's on the page, blending, and re-creating the composer's intentions to the best of our ability. So jamming and creativity take a back seat. Creative teachers of course will find opportunities to foster that. Those of us who come to music through the folk tradition rather than classical may not be "paper trained" but gain the ability to jam, play by ear, follow chord changes, and generally fly by the seat of our pants. It's a completely different set of skills and a different mindset. One of the hardest things for me going into folk genres was leaving that "paper training" behind. Still struggling with it. But please, no more bashing of public school music programs. These are run by highly trained, hard working, dedicated professionals who are doing the best they can under sometimes less than ideal circumstances.

[catmandu2]

Are we not able to critique?

Or does critique equal "bashing"..?

[catmandu2]

...run by highly trained, hard working, dedicated professionals who are doing the best they can under sometimes less than ideal circumstances.

The fundamental problem is the educational "system." Our kids often flourish largely because of great teachers, and often in spite of the environment (i.e., curricula). Critiquing sytems can help--when you go to the board meetings, you can advocate for better resources, rather than being content with "the way things are."

"I'm fed up with cabbage water!" -Charlie Bucket



Btw, Don, if you read my posts more carefully you might discover several "positive" comments

Not that there arent benefits to submission to conformity either--the "hive" has a function too

[KristinEliza]

There are sooooo many factors that go into what is taught in the school music programs. I can't speak for all orchestra programs, but I'm sure most of their curriculums are based off the National Standards...which includes improvisation.

Program expectations - I've known many a teacher/director that has been fired because their program didn't meet the performances expectations of the administration (e.g. - they wanted a corps /competition style marching band and it wasn't something that the community could support, or really wanted...so it never took off). When my principal asks me to get a group together to play for an event, I know he is expecting a classical string quartet...not my fiddle group. There is a time and a place for everything!

Classical based repertoire - well, it certainly would be an injustice if the teacher/program totally ignored the history of the instrument. I've known directors that will teach nothing but pop music because they think the kids will hate the classical stuff and drop out. If they are not exposed to ALL types of music, they will never know what they like! A GOOD teacher will program a variety of music for their classes.

Etudes - while I use some in my classroom instruction, I use them mostly in my private instruction. They need to be approached in the proper manner...a technical supplement to a larger picture. While they are meant to practice a specific technique...most of them are stand alone musical pieces in their own right (Paganini anyone?).

How do we get mandolins in the schools? Talk to the teachers. Volunteer your time. I had a local musician who played banjo and guitar come help me my first few years just to make sure I was leading my students in the right direction. Unless you live in a specific community, don't expect the instruction to get into the school's course of study. It will most likely be an extra curricular activity. But who knows, after several years maybe the district will see the interest in the program and see the benefit of bringing it into the school day.

However, with the current state of the educational system, with all the pressure of test scores, funding, staffing...adding another music class is on the bottom of the list.

[catmandu2]

agreed

[SincereCorgi]

More's the pity, but from 6th grade on here in Texas, the objective of the school's Band program is to teach students to play in , well, band - not to trust their ear, not to improvise. If a student has any innate musical talent, unless they have other outlets to play at home or other places, they will become frustrated and end up quitting.

While I am pretty sympathetic to what you're saying, there are good things about the self-sacrificing community spirit of bands and orchestras, where some poor schlub plays incredibly boring baritone sax parts because it makes the music sound better as a whole. Too many of the bluegrass jams I go to suffer from everybody in a circle wanting to showboat and play something interesting all the time.

Having said that, I'll agree that most band programs are a drag and the kids have to play hacky institutional schlock with titles like 'Flight of the Pegasus' by a bunch of very minor band composers. (I have never, ever heard anybody listen to this music on their own time.) The value of the program ends up being wholly dependent on having an amazing, tireless teacher to lead a program. Being a band teacher around here is a really hard job.