Case Color & Temperature

[almeriastrings]

A quick test. Two identical cases, one white, one red. I'd have liked to have included a black one too, but I don't have one of those. Simple setup, outside in the early morning sun.



External temperatures of cases 20 minutes into the test:



45.2 C (113 F)



28.8 C (83.84 F)

Two charts taken from recorders suspended in mid-air in the centre of each case. White case first (ignore the spike at the end, that is the result of opening the case and hot air rushing in).



Maximum air temperature 32.14 C (89.85 F)



Maximum air temperature 46 C (114.8 F)

[almeriastrings]

External temperatures at end of test. I could have gone on, but I could smell the glue gassing off in the red one! Obviously, no mandolins inside during this process.



54 C (147.20 F)



33.4 C (92.12 F)

The difference is staggering, both internally and externally. The big question: why do so few manufacturers offer white cases? They have phenomenal advantages in terms of protection from overheating in direct sunshine.

[Jim]

Wow, I want a white Case.

[Ivan Kelsall]

That's very interesting Almeira & in the light of your findings,you raised a good point re.white cases. I know that you have a Hiscox Ivory coloured case - do you also have a similar case in black ?.It would be interesting to see if the Ivory coloured case remained cooler & to what extent.There's no reason why cases made from fiberglass can't be made white, & many of the makers do indeed offer white as an option. Regarding vaccum formed ABS cases such as the Hiscox,they present different problems.I contacted Hiscox last year enquiring about their cases being made in colours other than black or ivory & they told me that ABS sheeting in other colours didn't mould too well. I didn't specifically mention white ABS, but why this should be i don't know. ABS like many other 'plastics' can be painted,but the preparation is very time consuming.Also,considering the amount of knocking an average case gets during it's life,the paint most likely wouldn't last too long.For those people with balck cases,if they feel they need to protect their instruments from extreme heat,than a reflective case cover would be a good option.
Re. White ABS :-2500x1250x1mm White Smooth Abs,White Smooth Abs Sheet,CODE:1.0ABSSMWH25001 £19.22 .Apparently it does exist,but not in instrument case form !!,
Ivan
PS - For those of us in the UK,we've heard of sunshine - what colour does it come in ?.

[Tavy]

PS - For those of us in the UK,we've heard of sunshine - what colour does it come in ?.

Grey?

[blueron]

All the more reason for me to appreciate having a carbon fibre Mix mandolin that isn't affected one jot by variations in temperatures!

ron

[JEStanek]

These are the reasons I suspect for why there are so few white cases. White cases get dirty and show every mark. The black pleather/leather cases becomes more invisible when on stage. People haven't asked for them. THe black case is traditional. I have a Yellow Eastman FG case. I really dig it. My second choice color would be red.

I wouldn't leave any case, no matter the color, in full sun.

Jamie

[coletrickle]

I have a white Eastman case and love it. It get's some interesting comments too...most notably "is that a Star War's Storm Trooper case?" I think the bold colors look awesome and frankly I don't mind if someone can see it on stage. Since it is relatively small it doesn't matter to me...plus it stands out for tips when playing the local Farmer's Market! People just want to put money into it.

[foldedpath]

That's one reason I ordered my recent Pegasus case in an ivory color. We don't get much sunshine up here in the PNW (it's like the UK), and I wouldn't leave a case out in the sun for any extended period anyway. The safety margin is nice though, so I don't have to be too paranoid about a little direct sun exposure. I used to do commercial photography in a much hotter climate where the concerns were the same: you don't use a dark-colored case if you can help it.

It probably doesn't help to cover a light-colored case with stickers, like Chris Thile has done with his white case at the start of this Bach video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSZ40V0teGM

But that case still probably won't heat up as much as a black one would in direct sunlight. I don't have any stickers on my Pegasus case yet, but I'm tempted....

[Ignatius]

Almeira--

I may be entirely mistaken, but I thought I learned that dark colors absorb heat more quickly but also radiate it off more quickly. A white case would heat up much more slowly but also would retain the heat much longer. Put another way: it would be interesting to leave the cases in the sun for a longer period of time and then measure, first, which case reaches the final highest temperature; and second, which case radiates the heat most quickly.

It might turn out that an instrument might be "cooking" longer in one of the lighter-colored cases.

Ignatius

[Buck]

The surface temperature of the case is one thing, but the internal temperature is what really matters. Of course some of that heat is conducted to the inside, but the difference is much less as your internal recorder showed. The padding is a reasonably good insulator. I think the advantage of the lighter colored case is pretty obvious. Nice presentation!

I have many dark cases, because that's more or less standard, but my travel cases (Caltons) are all white or light grey.

[Buck]

I may be entirely mistaken, but I thought I learned that dark colors absorb heat more quickly but also radiate it off more quickly. A white case would heat up much more slowly but also would retain the heat much longer. Put another way: it would be interesting to leave the cases in the sun for a longer period of time and then measure, first, which case reaches the final highest temperature; and second, which case radiates the heat most quickly.

It might turn out that an instrument might be "cooking" longer in one of the lighter-colored cases.

Once you take the case out of direct sunlight, the primary means of cooling is natural convection. Since the surface temperature is still fairly close to ambient (150 degrees as opposed to 500 degrees or more) radiant cooling will be a very small component and the color of the case will make little difference on internal cooling rate.

[almeriastrings]

What interested me especially was just how fast the internal temperature went up on the red case, despite the padding. By 8.30 am the white case was approximately 30 C (86 F), but the red one was already 44 C (111 F). I did this little test early in the morning here, because by mid-day the surface temperature on the patio tiles can be 74 C (165.2 F).......... Ivan, I do not have an identical Hiscox in Ivory, as that's an OM size. I do have several 'dread ones, though, and by careful positioning on the sensors inside, plus a bit of packing to equalise the air volumes, should be able to get a reasonably reliable comparison. The two cases used here have what seems to be a fairly standard grade foam padding, whereas the Hiscox are a different material. It will be interesting to see what the thermal properties of that are.

In this region, with 320 sunny days a year, and summer temperatures routinely up to 40C (104 F) in the shade, I really appreciate the best possible thermal protection for instruments. If you leave a guitar or mandolin in a car here in summer, you'll return to a pile of molten glue and an assembly kit....

I have a white Calton guitar case and I do agree that it is not easy to keep clean... the 'glossier' finish on the mandolin case is easier, though.

[Pete Summers]

Heat absorption is one reason there are so many white cars around (that and the fact the paint is cheaper). I unfortunately have a black car and black mandolin cases.

[banjoboy]

Thank you for this thread. I've been agonizing over which color Hoffee case I'd like. White seems so bland, but for practical purposes, it sounds like the best selection.

[Brutus1999]

You are mistaken. Just try standing in the direct, hot sunlight wearing a white long sleeved shirt and then do it with a black long sleeved shirt and you quickly learn that your body, which is under the shirt, will be much hotter when wearing the black shirt. The black color holds much more heat than the white color and if it is "radiating more heat back out" (such as when standing on a black colored street rather than a white colored one) it is because it is holding so much more heat in the first place! The white color is not radiating more heat -- it is reflecting it away right from the start and therefore "retaining" less.

In the trunk, away from direct sunlight but still in a very hot environment -- well then the color doesn't matter. It only matters when DIRECTLY exposed to the light.


b99

Almeira--

I may be entirely mistaken, but I thought I learned that dark colors absorb heat more quickly but also radiate it off more quickly. A white case would heat up much more slowly but also would retain the heat much longer. Put another way: it would be interesting to leave the cases in the sun for a longer period of time and then measure, first, which case reaches the final highest temperature; and second, which case radiates the heat most quickly.

It might turn out that an instrument might be "cooking" longer in one of the lighter-colored cases.

Ignatius

[grandcanyonminstrel]

All the more reason for me to appreciate having a carbon fibre Mix mandolin that isn't affected one jot by variations in temperatures!

ron

That's not necessarily true. While driving across the country last summer, I had my carbon fiber bass bow in the back of the truck and it got so hot in there that the gelcoat melted and took on a strong imprint of the soft nylon case. On the same roadtrip I also had excess heat cause the reds in anilyne dyes mixed in shellac completely fade to browns even while inside a case with no light exposure- that was a new one to me.

j.
www.condino.com

[Brutus1999]

I wonder if the Travelite case, which seems to have so much foam insulation, would provide more protection from the heat than other types of cases? But of course, speculation on my part doesn't mean much -- someone would have to actually test it out....

[blueron]

That's not necessarily true. While driving across the country last summer, I had my carbon fiber bass bow in the back of the truck and it got so hot in there that the gelcoat melted and took on a strong imprint of the soft nylon case. On the same roadtrip I also had excess heat cause the reds in anilyne dyes mixed in shellac completely fade to browns even while inside a case with no light exposure- that was a new one to me.

j.
www.condino.com

That's good to know, thanks. And although I have faith in the resistance to the elements of my Mix, I live in a hot climate, and when a mandolin is in the car for any length of time, I make sure it is in the air-conditioned part, not in the boot (as we Brits call it).

[peter.coombe]

I am not surprised at the difference in temperature. I did a similar test a few years ago. It is on my web site

http://petercoombe.com/jaamim6.html

The black case temperature got up to 51deg which is getting dangerous, and it was not a hot day (27deg). I only offer white Presto cases or a light coloured Cedar Creek because of this. Black is the worst possible colour for a music instrument cases. White does show scuff marks, but fibreglass is easy to clean. I took my 15yo white Presto case to the manufacturer a few years ago and he cleaned it up to like new with a rag soaked in acetone, so I would not worry about it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Well pointed out James. All things expand when hot,to a greater or lesser extent & constant expansion/contraction even for a c/f instrument isn't good. One thing to be aware of,is that Ultra-Violet light can cause the resin used in fiberglass or carbon composite lay-ups to deteriorate.Over a long period of time maybe,but it's not a good idea to place a c/f instrument in full sunlight.I can't imagine anybody doing that,but it's a point to ponder. All in all,direct heat from 'whatever' is a bad thing for instruments - even for Trumpets.You can burn your lips on the mouthpiece !!,
Air is a very good insulator,that's why loft insulation is as it is - full of air.If you need to leave an instrument in it's case in the trunk of a car for any length of time,wrap the case + instrument in a thick duvet cover or bedding quilt.It's the same princial that desert dwelling Arabs have used for centuries, & the reason that they wear lots of thick robes,to insulate themselves from the heat.They could of course wrap themselves in loft insulation,but it hasn't caught on yet. Now there's a niche market for somebody,
Ivan

[journeybear]

Why are black cases so prevalent? It's simple: black is cool. I mean the look, nothing else. Everybody knows how popular the little black dress is with women, right? Even has its own acronym, LBD. Ever hear of a litlte white dress? It's much the same thing here. Also. look at T-shirts - black is the preferred cool look. I have an enormous collection of them from up north, none of which can I wear here - too darned hot. Here it's all about white T-shirts, which is too bad - they get dirty and sweat-stained pretty fast. That's why I'm gravitating toward grey - the gym class style speckled kind of grey.

Anyway ... I would think a good option would be silver, something like road cases. High reflective index, I imagine, plus good and sturdy. Might be kind of pricey, though. Can't have everything. Or can you?

[almeriastrings]

One for the black case fans. A Travelite, a TKL, and a no-name as supplied with many Pac-Rim import A-models.



External temperatures were all very close (as you would expect).



TRAVELITE



NO-NAME



TKL

[journeybear]

Excellent! For once my insomnia is paying off. I get to see this experiment live. OK, it's not the same as watching paint dry, but it's pretty close.

Shouldn't you have the white and red ones in there, too, for direct comparison?

[almeriastrings]

Internal temperatures

No-Name



TKL



TRAVELITE



The Travelite does offer better thermal protection than the two wooden cases. However, it still attained over 46 C (114.8 F) internally so is by no means a total guarantee of security, and is not even in the same league as a white fiberglass case when it comes to protecting an instrument in direct sunlight.

Weather conditions were extremely similar to yesterday when I ran the red+white case test, I would have liked to have all 5 simultaneously, but I only have 3 recorders here at present. They cost a couple of hundred $$ each... I use them in the day job, and right now, I have most employed doing what they are intended for (not measuring cases!).