What make of Mandolin & who cares ?.

[mandolirius]

I would be interested in hearing from folks who have owned top-tier instruments--Dudenbostels, Gilchrists, Nuggets, Monteleones, original Loars, etc.--and determined that they really didn't get anything more out of their heavy investments than they did out of a much more affordable Kentucky, Eastman, Weber, or whatnot and decided to intentionally "downgrade."

Obviously loads of folks have to sell of expensive instruments to accomodate pressing financial obligations and end up with cheaper-but-serviceable instruments.

But I'm not aware of many folks who make the decision based on purely aethetic/pragmatic (tone, volume, playability, craftsmanship) reasons.

The more common argument seems to be "I've played a bunch of Gils and Dudes and even a Loar or two and none of them are really and better than my _________, and the nobody else can tell the difference, anyway."

Just curious.

Yeah, I'd be curious too. I'm struck by the resistance to the idea that there are truly exquisite mandolins out there that can stimulate us in amazing ways. Isn't that one of the premises this place rests on? I thought most mandolin freaks have their holy grails, be they Loars, Embergher bowback, Fender Mandocaster...whatever.

[pjlama]

I care...

[greg_tsam]

Man makes the tool. The tool does not make man...

Kinda and kinda not. I'm a hands on type person. I've worked professionally as a massage therapist, cable installer, carpenter and my own DIY plumber and auto mechanic. Some of you have experience doing these jobs and know that they need tools to complete the job. They're a necessity, not an option. Sometimes you need a tool and can get by with a cheap knock off that barely meets the requirements but it's good enough. Most times you need a good tool that performs well today and the next and can stand up to repeated wear and tear.

For example, when you need to put a few screws in you can always grab a cheap screwdriver and get it done. (Savannah/Johnson starter mando) You might strip the head if it's a tough job and have to get something better. A little more expensive. Better build quality. More durable. (Lower Lvl Kentucky/Micheal Kelly)

What if you have more than just a couple? Maybe you're removing cabinet screws and not too many. (Mid-Lvl mandos)

100 screws? You get a 18.v NiCad rechargeable with variable speed and torque. (Lower Professional Lvl) What if you're drywalling a house and need to put in a few thousand and have a short deadline. You get a screwgun with automatic belt feed that kicks tail. (Full on Pro Lvl)

If you want to put a laser sight, 5w LED light, Night Vision and both a bell and a whistle then go ahead, spend that money. But now its just flash for flash purposes.

I've seen a tool cost $5 and $200. The difference was build quality, fit and finish. Tighter tolerances. And it made life easier while performing the job better and faster.

At a certain point these mandos go past Pro Lvl and become "Artistic woodworking" and demand higher prices but not because of their sound and playability. Certainly L. Loar mandos are collectible but not worth the price based strictly these two requirements. Their history, scarcity and market demand makes them valuable.

Sorry for rambling on... We all know how important it is to have the right tool for the job. Question is, What "job" are you doing?

[belbein]

"causes me to loose my serenity. I've been known to become peevish" Great line!

I'm an iconoclast, in case you haven't noticed. I believe people overvalue perceived "quality" based on brand name and perceived excellence, a/k/a snobbery. That's clear enough in food; recently proven in an academic study on wine; obvious in cars and also the opposite sex. So, my guess is that if you could do a blind test like Coombe did, comparing different price levels of mandolins, there would not really be that much of a difference, and even some of the mass-produced moderate priced Asians would be in the same range as the "Great" mandolins. But of course so much depends on set up, strings, etc.

Having said that, iconoclasm* aside--I picked up a $14,000 mandolin in a shop in the Hill Country (Tx), and that baby was soooooo sweet--way beyond anything else I'd played, including plenty of $5000 mandos (Gibsons, Webers, God only remembers what else). So I'd say that there are some instruments that are just plain transcendently sweet, and some of them are over $5000. I am thankful I didn't have my checkbook with me that day and that I don't remember the name of the brand, or my son would be paying his own tuition next year. And I'd probably be divorced.

*Great name for a Klaysmer band: Iconklayzm. (Well, maybe not.)

[Willie]

I worked with tools most of my adult life and all I ever used were Craftsman tools from Sears, costing about 1/3 of Snap-on or S-K or other high cost tools and they were guaranteed for the life of the tool and their tolerences were just as good.....Not a good comparison with mandolins though as mandolins aren`t guaranteed for life....Only to the original owner....

[greg_tsam]

I use Craftsmen myself b/c I love the option of going into any Sear's store and exchanging a broke tool for a new one, no questions asked. Done it before and it was effortless.

After re-reading your OP and I realized I hadn't gotten close to answering your question. Got a little sidetracked but just mean to say that the right tool makes allows the craftsman to perform better but after a certain point it's just for show. Would a Dude, an Ellis and all the other museum pieces sound any less "better" if they weren't so damn pretty to look at?

Just to be clear I love all the flash, Like Bob Dobbs mermaid mando, "Mimi". I love a finish that looks like liquid glass and MOP inlays and knobs. But that's the aesthetic and not the sound.

I don't think the audience can tell the difference bet. mando's. As a player, yes, the difference is obvious. Is a $15K mando necessary. No. Appreciated by the musician? Yes. I play for my own enjoyment, even when on stage, but I'm pleased when others like it too.

Fellow 'Cafe member & an e-mail buddy,Willie,mentioned in his latest e-mail to me his feeling that most members of a Bluegrass audience,couldn't tell a $20,000 mandolin from a $200 one. I'd maybe go a bit higher than a $200 instrument,but when we get to some of the better $500 ones,he might have a very valid point.
As players,who's satisfaction & pleasure are we buying our instrument(s) for ?. I'm 100 % sure that it's for our personal pleasure & the pleasure that the audience gets is pretty secondary.I know that as players,many of us will be listening to the 'sound' of another player's mandolin,but we'd be in the minority in most audiences. If any of the players that we regard as the 'top pickers' were to come on stage & play,say a mid-priced Kentucky or Eastman,(choose own brand), as long as it sounded like a mandolin & it was being played well,would we really care ?.
Personally,i really couldn't give a toot if somebody like John Reischman was in front of me playing a $500 Kentucky instead of his mega-buck Loar.It's the music we listen to & the technique that we watch & aspire to have ourselves.
To have a good sounding,well set up & easy playing instrument is what we all want,but at what point does it really matter how much it costs with regard to what our listening audience enjoy ?.As performing musicians ( i 'used to be' one !)i feel that our own aspirations for our instruments is vastly higher than that of the folks who listen to us. It might be a thought to ponder when MAS strikes - do we really need a $15,000 + mandolin to keep the customers satisfied ?,
Ivan

[Justus True Waldron]

I care... and I'll say that's the biggest advantage for sure, but not the only one. I don't play out as much as I used to recently, but whenever I do I always feel I owe my audience the best. That means playing an instrument that is not only set up well (which you can get with almost any mando), but one that's loud enough to hear over banjos and the like so I'm confident and adventerous in my playing. It also means one that FEELS right and has THAT tone that gets me jazzed and makes me want to wring every bit of it out while playing. Do the audience know or care what name is on the head stock? I bet not. But do they care whether I play my cheap one or my nice one? I've played shows with both... and I've never gotten a compliment on my Kentucky. My playing, yes, but the mando itself? Never. I get compliments pretty much every show with my Macica, and people asking me about it (yes, even non-mando nerds). I'm pretty sure its safe to say based on the reaction I get that they care. Would it matter if they knew the cost of it before hand? I doubt that has any factor at all... to me money was not a factor in the decision... I found "my" mandolin and had to get it. Now I get to share it with other people, and they are going to get the very best I have to offer.

To me this argument seems to assume that there is no difference between a cheap instrument and an expensive one besides the name on the head stock, price, and possibly looks. In all my playing and learning about these instruments we play I have not found that to be the case at all!

[Big Ed]

No a high end mandolin is not needed to play wonderful music. Kind of like when I take a trip, we could take my mid-size pick up truck or my wife's Lincoln SUV. The latter seems to win every time. If you are spending 1+ hours per day playing mandolin buy the upper tier mandolin you deserve it. There is a difference.

[JeffD]

I resent the subtle implication that anyone has to justify his or her purchase of a fine mandolin, or even explain it. Its OK with me if you buy it only because you like nice things. And its OK with me if you stick with your beater, even if you are trying to prove you can do more with less.

At the end of the day my sole criteria is, are you any fun to play music with.


If I had to pick a side, I guess my sympathy is with the one who is powerless in the presence of exquisite objects and spends more money than moderation would dictate. At least I can recognize some good old fashioned red blooded passion.

I am skeptical of those so logical and rational they never do anything for love.

[Bertram Henze]

I am skeptical of those so logical and rational they never do anything for love.

Even they will receive a visit of the ghost of mandolins to come.
My heart tells me what I need, my head tells me how to get it, my hands tell my how to play it.

[greg_tsam]

I hope if I ever had to sell something pricey JeffD walks in. If my circumstances allowed me to purchase whatever I liked best and money was no object I'd look at Loars on down to Kentuckys and everything in between and choose what spoke to me. If that were my situation I would not be bothered by the opinions of others about my purchase. I would be happy with my good fortune. But that wasn't the OP's question that started this thread.

It might be a thought to ponder when MAS strikes - do we really need a $15,000 + mandolin to keep the customers satisfied ?,
Ivan

No one really needs a $15,000 mandolin in the strict sense of the word but many can afford them, some really make use of them and many many more want them. If only it weren't for this damn thing called poverty.

[JeffD]

It might be a thought to ponder when MAS strikes - do we really need a $15,000 + mandolin to keep the customers satisfied ?

Do we need a mandolin at all? To keep the customer satisfied, or for any other reason?

Of course not.

[greg_tsam]

Do we need a mandolin at all? To keep the customer satisfied, or for any other reason?

Of course not.

Oh, no sir! We definitely need mandolins.

[JeffD]

Oh, no sir! We definitely need mandolins.

Oh I quite understand. But to an outsider needing a mandolin is just as indulgent and seemingly ridiculous and hard to justify as is needing a fine mandolin to some of us insiders.

When you consider the costs of a mandolin life it is only incrementally more ridiculous to spend some money and get a fine mandolin.