What make of Mandolin & who cares ?.

[Dagger Gordon]

There's a big difference between comparing a Dude or a Gilchrist to a Loar and (for example) a Savannah to (again, for example) a Collings MT.

A Savannah is frankly not good enough for me, but a Collings MT is.
As to the differences between a Dude and a Loar, I don't suppose I'll ever know.

But can we please get away from thinking in terms of bluegrass?
Do you honestly think that people like Carlo Aonzo or Avi Avital would sound as good (never mind be happy with) some cheap mandolin? Of course not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbLCW...eature=related

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...lbum_id=743639

[blueron]

I have enjoyed reading this thread, even though I am surprised that such an innocuous and even rather vague question (no offence, Ivan! ) managed to inspire such a range of discussion.

I do think we tend to obsess over brands and values. I know that whenever I see TV or YouTube footage of a mandolin being played, I feel almost guilty that my first thought is invariably about what kind of mandolin is being played. I did say almost.

It is probably only mandolin heroes like Thile, McCoury et all who can begin to get the best out of instruments that cost tens of thousands of dollars, but that is all about skill and technique.

An admittedly dodgy metaphor might be racing cars. When a British auto show TV presenter who fancied himself as a hot shot driver got a test run in an F-1 car, he not only couldn't get within a country mile of real F-1 pace, he was unable to drive the car fast enough even to get enough heat in the brakes to make them work properly.

I suspect that the numbers of us enthusiasts who could really get the benefit of an instrument worth tens of thousands might be so small as to make the TV wannabe's performance look impressive.

ron

[Beanzy]

For me I always respond differently to different instruments. If I were playing professionally this would matter an awful lot.
It's not just the set-up it's how the instrument responds to the player's touch. There's a feedback loop going on there which is important to a player who tunes in to it. I have known guitarists who use different instruments depending on what they're playing, they just play this or that piece better on a given instrument. For those who write they often do so in response to ideas generated by the instrument they were playing at the time. I used to be the same on electric bass, different instruments brought out different playing and feel even without changing style or genre.

As well as being able to afford it, the act of buying an instrument that belongs in the upper rugs of a price ladder also says you believe you belong there, deserve it, are capable of appreciating it and delivering it to your audience. That in turn says you respect your audience enough to offer them the benefit of that financial sacrifice. You think they're worth it. Now for the kind of audience that can appreciate the difference, being presented with a player who doesn't think the audience are worth it is a bit of a slap in the face and probably a poor way to begin a relationship with your audience.

Me? No point in spending big money yet. I'm still in my self-enforced 4 year period on a decent enough 'hacker', as I definitely do not have the skills to bring the best sound out of a really good instrument. I've got the ear from my sound engineering, just not the ability to consistently rise to the required level as a mandolin player. Other people say it sounds good, while not being churlish I then peg them as either being too kind or ignorant of what good is. Another year and a half or so and I'll be in a position to consider the instrument as the next hurdle to get over. But until then it's not the instrument thet needs improving.

[Bertram Henze]

When I play alone, I want to hear my home sound. The instrument which gives me that is the right one.
When I play with others and somebody asks "where you got that from?" I don't want my instrument to blush and answer "I found him on eBay".

[NG53]

Well done Ivan for bringing this topic up. I think as human beings we always start out with something we can easily afford. As we get more refined in our tastes, we trade up for something better. One of the reasons there is so much MAS going on, is that a mandolin a highly strung instrument so when a player plays it, he is getting feedback on how it sounds straightaway. If it sounds tinny to his or her ears, eventually he or she will want to find something better.

With the advent of on-line video we can hear and see what an unplugged instrument sounds like. That means as a mandolin player your experiences are expanded very much beyond the instrument you play in your living room or with a band. We are now presented with more choices now in one year about what to buy than in the period from the 1900s to the 1980s. That means we can get easily hooked on which the emotional side of our brain says we want and overrides the logical brain that says what we have is good enough.

Yes there is an inflection point on the graph between price, quality, and sound where it does not matter how much extra one spends on a mandolin, only minor improvements will result. The quest for a Gibson Loar F-style instrument has now become a holy grail for a lot of people. The number of Loar F-style copies that are out there boggles me.

Only musicians really appreciate the differences in timbre, tone, and volume - most of the audience out there won't get it except those in the audience who have been musically trained. They will be looking for something which in the hands of the mandolin player sounds good and has an emotional connection with them. The looks of the mandolin are less important. Each country has its mandolin counterpart in terms of holy grail: Gibson F-style Loar in the USA; Sobell in England; whatever the equivalent is in Italy; etc. As mandolin players, we need to reflect on what makes us and our audience tick - the vitality and warmth of our musicianship, our rhythmic style, our connection with an audience. We can get away with modest mandolins to achieve this.

[Mandolin Mick]

Years ago, when I was primarily a classical guitarist, I came to a point of proficiency where my guitar was limiting me and I had to upgrade to a Ramirez. Only then was I able to play more complex passages. It wasn't me; it was the guitar.

Though I haven't arrived at that level of mandolin skill ... yet ... I believe a better instrument brings out the best in us as musicians, and the audience can hear that, though they may not tell any difference in tone.

[Richard Moore]

The more I play, the more it seems to me to be about the connection one has with one's instruments. I've owned expensive instruments that I've sold on because I didn't develop a "bond" with them as I'd expected and cheaper ones that I will always keep. As my tastes have developed, I appreciate different things now. For instance, last week I was comparing three Gibson A models side-by-side, both playing them myself and hearing them played by someone else opposite me with a view to perhaps buying one of them. The one that "spoke to me" most strongly by a long way was the cheaper "lower" model of the three. In performing, I often find that someone will say "I liked the sound that mandolin has" but haven't a clue or any interest in what it is if they aren't a mandolin player themselves. Certainly, I have no interest in what might be called a "holy grail" instrument, but rather in one that I can really appreciate personally.

[NG53]

BTW Ivan,

Your list of instruments strikes me as someone who knows quality. Are you prepared to replace the ones you have with ones that cost more and have more pizazz? Or are you satisfied with what you have?

Nic

[foldedpath]

Another way of looking at this is that once the sound from your mandolin hits a microphone, you are no longer playing acoustically. You have a whole new set of variables acting upon the sound that ends up in the ears of your audience. Might not a mandolin, specifically built to sound good amplified perform better under these circumstances than Dawg's 1922 Gibson?

That's not how sound reinforcement works. If you want the audience to hear the tone of a good acoustic mandolin, then you put a good acoustic mandolin in front of the microphone. And you don't use a pickup.


A general principle for both recording and sound reinforcement is that you work backwards from a quality source, and then try to keep everything else in the chain as transparent and faithful to the source as possible. In a PA system it's relatively easy (if expensive) to maintain quality on the front end, with the choice of microphones and mixer. The limitations are more on the back end of the system, with the quality and deployment of the FOH speakers, and the way they're attenuated by the acoustics of the venue and what kind of audience you're dealing with (loud vs. attentive). That's usually the limiting factor, but it doesn't mean that every venue and system is bad.

I have heard some great concerts where the system was good, the venue acoustics were good, the operators knew how to run the system, and the audience was quiet and attentive. I've also heard my share of bad sound reinforcement in a room with horrible acoustics and a loud audience. Outdoor concerts are especially hard to do well, compared to a good system in an acoustically-treated concert hall.

The fact that bad sound reinforcement situations exist, isn't an excuse (IMO) to throw up one's hands and say "it doesn't matter what you play, the PA will kill the sound." There is a lot of discussion in this thread that seems to take this for granted, but I disagree that this is always the case, because I've heard good sound reinforcement.

At any rate, you're not going to get better sound by playing an instrument designed to "sound good through a PA" unless you're playing one of the music genres like rock, blues, or jazz, where the tone of an electric instrument is a better match for the music.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

Here is my philosophy: Play what you want. I don't play well enough to own my Duff, but I don't care. When it is in the case, and I am reading or watching TV, I can hear it calling to me.

And to really answer the question, yes they can. My wife does not play an instrument and could not care less about mandolins and bluegrass or old-time music. Of all the mandolins I have owned (MKs, Weber Mandolin Store Special, YellowStone and Vintage Old Growth, Gibson A9, Gibson 5g, my old Gibson Oval A and my Duff she has only walked back to the bedroom and said how beautiful one of the sounds. Guess which one it was?

[Alex Orr]

I don't care how much it costs, but the quality of sound is something I do care about, and though the OP may disagree, there is nearly always a noticeable difference in sound between a cheaper (sub $500 mando) and instruments in, for example,the $2k and up range. I've heard pretty good pickers in jams playing cheap instruments and, sorry, I could tell the tone and volume were lacking, even if the playing was quite good. On stage...well, PUs, amps, and PAs often make the differences far less apparent.

To put it another way... I've got a Brentrup F5 and a Kentucky KM380s. There is simply no comparison.

[Chip Booth]

Having worked in a music store I know that even an inexperienced player, let alone a listener, often cannot hear the differences in lesser vs nicer instruments. For myself, I play better on my nice mandolin that I know well and understand how to get better tone and dynamics from. I play with a sound and feel that I enjoy and respond to. That makes my playing better, and the audience can hear that!

[mandotim1955]

This is a great thread, I'm really enjoying following the thinking. I have a really busy life just now, and I need to motivate myself to make time to play and (especially!) practice. I've tried to have a principle that I will play a better instrument than I am as a player, and try to 'grow into' the instrument. I get a buzz when I can draw some really nice tone out of a good instrument, although that doesn't happen as often as I'd like. I'm struggling to keep up with my current instruments though...time to go practice!
Tim

[JonZ]

The fact that bad sound reinforcement situations exist, isn't an excuse (IMO) to throw up one's hands and say "it doesn't matter what you play, the PA will kill the sound." There is a lot of discussion in this thread that seems to take this for granted, but I disagree that this is always the case, because I've heard good sound reinforcement.

At any rate, you're not going to get better sound by playing an instrument designed to "sound good through a PA" unless you're playing one of the music genres like rock, blues, or jazz, where the tone of an electric instrument is a better match for the music.

It sounds like you know what your talking about, so I'll take your word for it. Still, you are not "hearing" anyone's Loar at a large music festival.

[AlanN]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but this statement

Still, you are not "hearing" anyone's Loar at a large music festival.

makes absolutely no sense, to me.

I recently caught The Grasscals. Danny was playing his 1922 Loar, on stage. I "heard" every note, and it sounded just like his 1922 Loar.

[Willie]

Here is another slant on this topic....I started out with a Gibson A-50 and then bought a Gibson F-12, a great sounding mandolin, then for some reason I bought an Aria Japan made and when most people couldn`t tell the difference I sold the F-12...I played the Aria for about 8-10 years with a band and then I had a custom made F-5 made and that became my main instrument for years...The custom mandolin with a case cost me about 450 bucks in 1981....I guess you could say that I bought and sold mandolins just for a hobby as well as keeping the ones that I liked best to perform with, and I still do that to this day...

I don`t mean to answer for Ivan but from his e mails I believe he is happy with what he has now and he doesn`t play with any given band these days so maybe if he did he would be looking for something different but I doubt it....

I agree that a mandolin should feel comfy in your hands and play like silk and if that is the case you will maybe play better but that doesn`t alter the sound any....I take it Ivan was meaning does the audience hear a difference in the mandolins....A lot of you are still answering and saying that you can and I`m sure you can if you are a mandolin player....I play different mandolins at different times and don`t believe the audience can ever tell the difference....In Florida one year I saw Jesse Brock put down his A model that he was playing and started the next set with a borrowed Gilchrist and no one knew the difference, not even me, Jesse didn`t finish the set with it either, could have been the way it was set up, WHO KNOWS?

Willie

[JonZ]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but this statement

Still, you are not "hearing" anyone's Loar at a large music festival.

makes absolutely no sense, to me.

If you measured sound waves going into the mic, and those coming out of the speaker, there would be significant differences other than amplitude. My guess is that the sound of a Kentucky going into a mic has more in common with the sound of a Loar going into a mic than the sound of a Loar going into a mic has with its own amplified sound, especially as the amplification increases.

I could be wrong.

[Charlieshafer]

I think the difference here is somewhat hair-splitting. While quality of sound certainly allows you to hear all the nuance a good player can deliver, it doesn't necessarily give you the quality needed to hear the differences between individual instruments, unless there's a huge disparity, say someone's Gil vs. a Strad-o-lin. We probably have one of the most acoustically analyzed rooms around, what with an Ivy-league architectural school a few minutes away. In the past, grad students have made room measurements before sound check with an artist's cd, then during sound check with an empty room (using the measurements from the cd to get the balance as close to cd quality as possible) then during the show itself with a full house. Watching sound waves degrade as they flow over an always slightly-moving, super-quiet audience is quite interesting. And rooms do make a huge difference, from the obviously acoustically-poor ones to something like the new Avery Fischer Hall at Lincoln Center, where you can stand anywhere on stage and have a conversation at normal speaking levels with anyone, anywhere in the room, even at the far back rows.

What I've found through the years is even at the most carefully mixed shows, I don't hear the difference between Jason Norris's Brock or Josh Pinkham's Red Diamond, or any of the other Derringer-signed MM F5s or Gils, but I sure hear the difference between the players. You know it's Josh or Jason or whomever by their style. As to what they're playing, it's obviously a nice instrument, but to say I can pick out what they're playing? Nah, that's a stretch, at least for me.

[chip]

The "general" public doesn't have so much of an inkling what brand of guitar, mandolin, etc. is especially those sitting in the back of a venue but most have heard of the Gibson brand name. If one use's a pickup on their instrument then the sound is pretty consistent as an electric instrument so the nuances of getting the real tone out of the acoustic is pretty well disguised, in my opinion, so why have an expensive one if that's the case. I'm not so sure what the point is of the OP as good instruments just sound better to a trained ear. With mp3 downloads, CDs, sound quality has greatly suffered and the mass's are content with it so I suppose inferior made instruments sound good to the untrained ear. Personally, I prefer the better things that life has to offer and great sound is one of them.

[mandolirius]

The "general public" is the lowest common denominator. Why is that being used as the baseline for this discussion? Most of the "general public" doesn't even know what a mandolin is. If we based everything we did on what is acceptable or recognizable to the g.p. we wouldn't do anything interesting at all. Who cares if the g.p. hears it? We do, so what else matters?

[Jim]

And to really answer the question, yes they can. My wife does not play an instrument and could not care less about mandolins and bluegrass or old-time music. Of all the mandolins I have owned (MKs, Weber Mandolin Store Special, YellowStone and Vintage Old Growth, Gibson A9, Gibson 5g, my old Gibson Oval A and my Duff she has only walked back to the bedroom and said how beautiful one of the sounds. Guess which one it was?

Maybe she thought she should say something before you got another one

[chip]

I mentioned "general public" as this is what the OP said in his posting: "feeling that most members of a Bluegrass audience,couldn't tell a $20,000 mandolin from a $200 one."
That sounds to like a reference to the General Public, which for most practice purposes is considered to be the audience.

[Beanzy]

If you're playing better because you're playing your good / favourite mandolin they'll notice.
If they see you've taken a cheapo along even though they know you've got a MuttsNutts whatever, they'll notice.
The quality of performing isn't only about the music, it's about the whole performance.
How you dress your overall demeanour your respect for the audience and what you play are core elements of how people will perceive that performance. They may not appreciate the subtleties of tone you produce, they may not all be sophisticated enough as listeners to catch what makes the difference to your playing, but those who are will enjoy your performance more if you give them the best you can. From what I've seen in music those people are also the opinion formers.

[mandolirius]

I mentioned "general public" as this is what the OP said in his posting: "feeling that most members of a Bluegrass audience,couldn't tell a $20,000 mandolin from a $200 one."
That sounds to like a reference to the General Public, which for most practice purposes is considered to be the audience.

Yup, I agree. And they probably can't tell the difference. Again I ask, why does that matter? I have no idea what people hear when they listen to me play. All I know is that I like the sound of my mandolin and it makes me want to play it. It's a well-consructed, professional instrument that doesn't give me problems when I'm on stage and that helps me relax and play better. But that's not something the general public would know or care about either.

I guess I just don't get the premise here, which seems to be: if people can't tell the difference, why don't we all play $500 mandolins? We don't because we can tell the difference. I don't play a $500 dollar mandolin because I don't want to. I care about the bluegrass audience/general public when I perform because I want to give them a good show and do my best. I don't care about them when it comes to deciding what mandolin to play.

[Mike Bunting]

I guess I just don't get the premise here, which seems to be: if people can't tell the difference, why don't we all play $500 mandolins?

I suppose that must be the premise. To me the question is just a pointless one designed solely just to make noise. It's just cocktail party chatter.