What make of Mandolin & who cares ?.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Fellow 'Cafe member & an e-mail buddy,Willie,mentioned in his latest e-mail to me his feeling that most members of a Bluegrass audience,couldn't tell a $20,000 mandolin from a $200 one. I'd maybe go a bit higher than a $200 instrument,but when we get to some of the better $500 ones,he might have a very valid point.
As players,who's satisfaction & pleasure are we buying our instrument(s) for ?. I'm 100 % sure that it's for our personal pleasure & the pleasure that the audience gets is pretty secondary.I know that as players,many of us will be listening to the 'sound' of another player's mandolin,but we'd be in the minority in most audiences. If any of the players that we regard as the 'top pickers' were to come on stage & play,say a mid-priced Kentucky or Eastman,(choose own brand), as long as it sounded like a mandolin & it was being played well,would we really care ?.
Personally,i really couldn't give a toot if somebody like John Reischman was in front of me playing a $500 Kentucky instead of his mega-buck Loar.It's the music we listen to & the technique that we watch & aspire to have ourselves.
To have a good sounding,well set up & easy playing instrument is what we all want,but at what point does it really matter how much it costs with regard to what our listening audience enjoy ?.As performing musicians ( i 'used to be' one !)i feel that our own aspirations for our instruments is vastly higher than that of the folks who listen to us. It might be a thought to ponder when MAS strikes - do we really need a $15,000 + mandolin to keep the customers satisfied ?,
Ivan

[Markus]

Well, the last mando-centric show I was in a small room and I sat less than 10 feet directly in front of Mike Compton. I could clearly tell the difference among his mandolins and the depth of tone I got 'right out in front' was stunning. There were mics, but I was getting raw instrument sound. (his Duff is to die for)

In that case I would disagree.

Then again, listening to Telluride yesterday, anything with a piezo in it might as well be made of plywood as tone disappeared. Would be sad a great mandolin sounded like that.

I think that a lot of listening environments don't do justice to a good mandolin. But when you can hear everything, it does matter (just doesn't happen that often).

[trainmaster]

Fellow 'Cafe member & an e-mail buddy,Willie,mentioned in his latest e-mail to me his feeling that most members of a Bluegrass audience,couldn't tell a $20,000 mandolin from a $200 one. I'd maybe go a bit higher than a $200 instrument,but when we get to some of the better $500 ones,he might have a very valid point.
As players,who's satisfaction & pleasure are we buying our instrument(s) for ?. I'm 100 % sure that it's for our personal pleasure & the pleasure that the audience gets is pretty secondary.I know that as players,many of us will be listening to the 'sound' of another player's mandolin,but we'd be in the minority in most audiences. If any of the players that we regard as the 'top pickers' were to come on stage & play,say a mid-priced Kentucky or Eastman,(choose own brand), as long as it sounded like a mandolin & it was being played well,would we really care ?.
Personally,i really couldn't give a toot if somebody like John Reischman was in front of me playing a $500 Kentucky instead of his mega-buck Loar.It's the music we listen to & the technique that we watch & aspire to have ourselves.
To have a good sounding,well set up & easy playing instrument is what we all want,but at what point does it really matter how much it costs with regard to what our listening audience enjoy ?.As performing musicians ( i 'used to be' one !)i feel that our own aspirations for our instruments is vastly higher than that of the folks who listen to us. It might be a thought to ponder when MAS strikes - do we really need a $15,000 + mandolin to keep the customers satisfied ?,
Ivan

I agree with the good sounding,well set up,& easy playing ,,but I believe that the beauty of the wood , and the instrument itself have a lot to do with the desire to posess a particular mandolin. It's the same with an old hot rod,, given that there were 2 identical cars, both with the same engines and setup,,both had identical performance,, but one was shabby looking, the other a work of art,, most folks would opt for the higher price fancy one. I think it's a matter of personal pride . All the customers really want is good music. So yes Ivan,,,we don't really need the $15k one for work,,but just for ourselves.

[Bob Clark]

Performing musician or novice, I think it's important that we have an instrument that pleases us individually. For some, that will be a high-ticket model, for others a bargain instrument (that may indeed be a real bargain). For some it must be purchased new, for others it will be a vintage beauty. For some, only the tone matters, for others its the whole aesthetic package. The important thing is that it is the instrument that the individual musician really wants to play.

This instrument will inspire us to practice more, play more and play our best. Perhaps our audience, be they paying customers or just our own family members, can't tell the difference. Either way, we want to play our best for them. An instrument we love will inspire us to do so.

This selection may also change over time, giving us the pleasure of always playing and listening to other instruments, and ultimately to the quest for our next instrument (MAS is a good thing).

For these reasons, I think this selection is a purely personal choice and a selection we make for ourselves more than our listeners. In turn, however, this selection indirectly benefits even the uninformed members of our audience. Maybe they can't discern one mandolin from another, but they still benefit by our choosing an instrument we love. Within limits, only the player's own opinion really matters.

Anyway, FWIT that's my opinion. Best wishes, Bob

[billkilpatrick]

we're all susceptible to "brand-name-itis" but generally speaking, i'm with you. this mel bay book i just received with photos of bill monore standing before the mic, playing something other than his loar - if i were there to hear him and it in person, would i have been let down? ... felt cheated? i don't think so.

in terms of F-style mandolins, providing it was well made and in accordance with lloyd loar's design improvements, the name and decorative doo-dads up there on the peg board isn't ... isn't ... "is not to be considered as an essential part of anything."

[swampstomper]

For the discerning ear, and in a setting where the acoustics are clear (preferably naked but can be with a sound system and knowledgeable engineer) there is a tremendous difference. Of course a good player can make anything sound good. But sitting three feet away from Don Stiernberg in a workshop and hearing his Nugget, then hearing him play other people's mandos, the magic of that wonderful instrument is clear. Monroe's main Loar had a woody bark and presence that even he could not get on Connie Gately's F4 used on "Big Mon" and "Monroe's Hornpipe". Do you think Ronnie McCoury sprung for his Loar for himself? I would think he, as a pro, wants the best sound he can give his audience. To answer the OP, I think the audience does "care" in that they hear professional-quality instruments along with the professional playing.

Having said all this, there are pro players who seem not to care much about the instrument and are willing to have just about anything in their hands to make music. Ira Louvin is the obvious example, but even Saint Jethro was much more about the clean picking and musicality than the tone of the mando. To my ears.

[Paul Busman]

I'm with the OP on this.

[Jim Garber]

After countless comparison tests in the violin world, we also wonder why violinists aspire to even more expensive instruments than needed or noticed by the audiences. It is not the audiences but the player themselves. I think some aspect of the appeal is similar to wearing a quality suit vs. one that is more cheaply made. There is something not readily apparent that adds to the players confidence when playing a quality instrument or wearing a quality suit. In addition, there is the feedback that the player gets from that superior instrument. There is also the responsiveness that the player feels -- the superior instrument will be easier to get the nuances and respond easier to the player's touch.

Yes, an excellent player can get the same tone on a lesser instrument and the audience may not know the difference but there are other reasons.

[jimmy powells]

Good discussion topic in my view. Great players make reasonable mandolins sound very good but just as with guitars you don't get "that sound" with cheaper instruments except on rare occassions. I recently bought The Loar LH 200 guitar which was £200 and absolutely great instrument. The bark and tone of a really well F5 will always outstrip the £500 lightweight mandolins and owning something that "does the correct job" has a feel good factor. I've paid thousands for mandolins and guitars over the years but equally I have a £700 guitar which will beat virtually any £3000 dreadnought so I don't need a £3000 dreadnought just to say I have a Martin or whatever. My mandolin (1984 The Flatiron F5) gives me a sound that I love. it was expensive but I could never get this sound from any £500 mandolin so it's horses for courses.
I've seen lots of very expensive guitars and mandolins which just don't stand up, often due to poor set-up.

Jimmy Powells
Northumberland
England

[dang]

WHAT? it is all about the music? And here I thought I came to mandolin cafe to discuss mandolins

Seriously though, I feel have a particular sound on my own mandolin and I know how that mandolin plays and responds to me and I think that is what this is really about. The instrument responds to me and I respond to the instrument. If it happens to be a $15k blonde that I respond to, that is up to me

[Pete Summers]

Speaking only as a listener, I couldn't care less what instrument a performer is using if I like the music. I've heard great music played on cigar box instruments and kazoos (i.e, Carolina Chocolate Drops). I've also heard music I wouldn't walk across the street to hear being played on top dollar instruments.

As an amateur player, I seek an AFFORDABLE instrument that pleases me, including such features as tone, play-ability and appearence. If I don't like how it looks, I don't care how it sounds. If I don't like how it sounds, I don't care how it looks. I want what I want in mandolins and women.

[sgarrity]

I buy mandolins that I enjoy. I keep the ones that make me want to pick them up and play them. Buy what you can afford and play the fire out of it. And stop over analyzing it!!!

[Jim]

I can hear the diff between good and not so good in an up close listening situation with good acoustics. But put background noise, amplification , let alone pickups into the mix and It all goes away. However how the artist feels about the instrument he or she plays is still there. I think the conection between an artist and the instrument is the part that matters.

[Charlieshafer]

I'm in the boat with the folks that believe a great instrument is fun to have, hold and play, but is irrelevant to performance satisfaction. And by performance, I DO NOT mean sitting three feet from someone while they're playing directly in front of you. I mean the standard performance with a stage with a performer on it, an audience, and an unfortunate separation between the two of at least 15-20 feet and needing sound reinforcement. While there are a few musicians who travel with their best instruments, there are far more, even of the quality of a John Jorgenson, who will never travel with anything costing more than a grand. And, they sound pretty unbelievable when they're up there on the stage.

In the same vein, it's funny listening the the people who are in awe of Andy Statman's incredible technical prowess and tone, and yet insist they need an "f" style mandolin to duplicate it. So yes, thre instrument is irrelevant in a true performance, pure and simple. You may want to go see Chris Thile playing his Loar up on the stage at some festival, but if you think you can hear the difference once it's been amplified and sent through a P.A. system, you're delusional.

[JEStanek]

I have mixed feelings about this. As a listener at folk festivals well away from the stage only hearing the amplified sound, I'm unconcerned with the nuances of the instrument the player has. It sounds like a mandolin if person is banging a Rogue, Rigel, or Gil. Now, when I have a chance to sit at arms length after the show and listen to Mike Compton (Gil), Barry Mitterhoff (Buckeye), and Frank Sollivan (Lewis) playing together I can hear differences beyond style and technique.

Personally, while I really enjoy the Eastman mandolins I've had, I can appreciate the superiority of the Spira mandolin I had made for me. Granted, the flat back Spira is in the ball park of the Eastman Fstyle price wise and not a $8-20K instrument. I will never, begrudge a performer the tools they use to do their work. Just as I find it acceptable for Thile to have a Loar and a Dude and thought he sounded great on the Collings he borrowed from Edgar Meyer (see the Edgar Meyer Thile DVD, please) I understand personally how we bond to specific instruments. It may be irrational, but isn't a great deal of art and our muses, irrational?

Jamie

[multidon]

I think this is an interesting discussion as well, and I would like to spice it up with a little non-mandolin content.

I play both violin and guitar, and there are stark contrasts among the professionals in each field. Among violinists, they seem to get really attached to only one instrument. They play it everywhere, they take it everywhere, it's THEIRS. If they ever have to play anything else because of a trip to the repair shop they go into panic mode. Seldom have I met a violinist with a back up instrument. There really doesn't seem to be much VAS going on unless it's trading up to something better, but still just one instrument.

Some of that same attitude seems to go on with acoustic guitarists but they are more willing to have a back up or touring instrument. They would rather be playing their beloved vintage Martin but they recognize the necessity of having something they can treat roughly and stand up to roadies. For some reason I can't figure out, Takamines seem to be the brand of choice for this purpose.

Electric guitarists are by far the most willing to compromise on not playing their first choice instrument. In fact a lot of the big names seem to have large collections of vintage instruments, many of which they use in the studio only. But then they tour with beaters. There are of course exceptions to this, and exceptions to all of the above as well. These are just generalizations based on my observations.

Mandolinists? Well, I haven't quite figured them out yet!

[Mike Scott]

I find this an interesting discussion. On the one hand, it comes down to listening to performers (I am far from that). In that case I like to know that who ever it is I am listening to (live) is evoking the best sound they can from what ever instrument they are playing, be it mandolin, guitar, fiddle, saxaphone, (gulp) banjo or whatever. Then there are jams and other personal taste/practice incentives/etc. This is different and personal. I have two mandolins, a KM1500 (I think I got a really good one with a great set up from the Mandolin Store). It has really pretty wood and sounds and plays better than any mandolin I have played (the most expensive of those I have played would be a Collings MF). I also have a Silverangel A. It is more bluegrassy; has beautiful myrtle back and all. Even with those two mandos-I find myself lusting after a distressed F model Silverangel. Will it sound better-doubtful; but ......................... I don't think it is any different with the "pros". I think they want the best looking, playing and tone they can get. Who among us mortals can question that. YMMV-just one hack's humble opinion.

[JEStanek]

Guitarists are a strange breed! When I saw Thurston Moore with Sonic Youth there were racks and racks of guitars ready to go on/back stage. At the Philadelphia Folk Fest in 2006 Jackson Browne had a whole rack (IIRC ~20!!!!) of acoustics lined up behind him.

Jamie

[Willie]

Some of you have responded by saying you can notice a difference, well you are a mandolin player so I`m sure you can, what Ivan is talking about is playing when most people in the audience can`t tell the difference in a high dollar instrument and an import that sells for a lot leass maoney....

I would bet that most people couldn1t tell which mandolin Ronnie McCoury or Thile was playing if they made a recording of them playing a song....Both of them had great sounding Gilchrists and still opted to buy a Loar...I know the Gil isn`t a $500 instrument and would satisfy 99% of the pickers that owned one so why did they need a Loar...FOR THEIR OWN ENJOYMENT, not for the audiences, also might just be a status symbol, just like bluegrassers having to own an F model mandolin when an A model sounds just as good....Or having to have a Martin guitar and a Gibson 5 string banjo....I own a cusrom made F-5 mandolin that says "Gibson" on the peghead and I have had many many people ask about my "Loar" mandolin, of course I tell them it is a copy, I didn`t have it built to fool anyone, but just to live up to what others were doing and playing at the time (1981), I don`t play it out anymore, it just hangs on the wall....

Take a $500 mandolin and have it set up correctly and install some good tuners on it and a decent bridge and it will suffice for most of us as far as performing a decent show...Just maybe it will fall apart but it can easily be replaced....

Willie

[terzinator]

Here's a vid of Beaumont Rag with Adam Gare playing a kentucky A. (In the description, it says "he didn't have his Gilchrist with him")

Sounds danged good to me, so I think the player has quite a bit to do with it.

[StevenS]

When I first got married, my wife needed a car. We heard about a new brand -- "Hyundai" . . . which had just opened a new dealership near where we were living in Asheville. That cool November, we test drove and eventually bought a car that cost less than $5000 and had a monthly payment of $106 . . . we congratulated ourselves on the brilliant buy and the additional savings by getting car with a sunroof so we didn't need to pay for air conditioning!

About the same time, the owner of the company I worked for bought a new Jaguar. My wife and I realized we could buy a new Hyundai every month for less than the payment on the Jaguar . . . which didn't even have a sunroof!

Of course, that summer, as we frantically wiped the fog from the windows while driving through steaming rainstorms with the sunroof necessarily closed, we realized there might have been some errors in our logic.

Over the years, our car tastes and buying wisdom have gradually become more refined. We always get air conditioning; still would never consider a Jaguar.

My Point - brand and price can make a big difference . . . but sometimes you can only understand those differences through time and experience. Very few race car drivers would select an '86 Hyundai for the Indianapolis 500; but we weren't race car drivers then and still aren't now.

I realized I've repeated the same learning pattern with bikes, tools, homes, and instruments.

With 20/20 hindsight, I'm amazed at how crummy that car looks now; how my first road bike feels like a brick with pedals; how imprecisely my old table saw cuts; how my first mandolin played like a stump with strings.

At the time they were all I could imagine ever wanting, needing or buying.

[billkilpatrick]

... Mandolinists? Well, I haven't quite figured them out yet!

trying to locate one who's actually made it through stage four of the MAS rehab recovery program will be tough.

[Markus]

You may want to go see Chris Thile playing his Loar up on the stage at some festival, but if you think you can hear the difference once it's been amplified and sent through a P.A. system, you're delusional.

And here I thought I could hear discrete tonal differences between [at least some of] the mandolins when I saw David Grisman on his Tone Poems tour when he pulled out quite a list of various old mandolins at his show for that tour here.

Is David Grisman delusional for thinking we could hear the differences between these instruments at his show?

He structured that whole show around featuring different instruments, from my memory. In the quiet listening environment that show had it worked [I thought]. That's a lot of years ago, but as a non-mandolinist at the time it blew my mind that the mandolin had such a range of voices.

[CaskAle]

Guitarists are a strange breed! When I saw Thurston Moore with Sonic Youth there were racks and racks of guitars ready to go on/back stage. At the Philadelphia Folk Fest in 2006 Jackson Browne had a whole rack (IIRC ~20!!!!) of acoustics lined up behind him.
Jamie

Yep, I saw Sonic Youth live in the early 90s. They had their huge racks of guitars at the front of the stage just after the performance, so of course I took a look. On the back of the headstocks by the machine heads were stickers with the notes the strings were to be tuned to. Needless to say, some very odd tunings and I didn't notice two alike from guitar to guitar!

[foldedpath]

The musicians I know who have progressed beyond the rank beginner level -- whether amateur or pro-level players -- take some pride in developing "their tone." It's part of who they are, as musicians. That sound may be mostly in the hands, ears, and experience of the player, but some of it is in the choice each of us makes in what instrument to play. If that wasn't a factor, then we'd all be playing the same brand of inexpensive instrument.

The fact that most larger PA systems (not all!) will tend to flatten out and homogenize the sound of acoustic instruments doesn't matter. Every "acoustic" band rehearses before they get up on stage. The individual musicians will rehearse at home, the band will get together to rehearse, and they might also warm up in the green room before they go live. Those are acoustic rehearsals (for the types of bands we're probably talking about), where each player's personal tone matters in forming the overall blended sound of the band.

That sound is best captured in a recording studio, but if the PA system is a very good one, at least some of that sound will get out to the audience. Even if it doesn't, what you hear is the end-result of many hours of acoustic practice together. I honestly believe that a really tight acoustic band, like say, Punch Brothers, doesn't achieve whatever sound you hear through a given PA system, without caring about what their tone sounds like when they rehearse without a PA.

There will always be musicians who use a certain instrument for purely self-indulgent reasons, or other musicians who practice "one-downsmanship" by performing with the cheapest possible generic instrument. But I think the majority of performing musicians do care about developing a personal sound, with a specific instrument (or two or three!) as part of that process.