K&K Twin Internal with Vintage Jack

**pickinpete** · Jun-24-2012, 2:06am

I have been kicking around the pickup situation...this is the WORST part of getting a new mandolin. On my morgan monroe I had a radius pickup installed internal with a 1/4" endpin jack. I was mostly ok with it..sounded good most of the time. I didnt care for the rumble during tremolo on double stops, and even with the PADI I couldnt dial it out completely. Then I was thinking about the schertler dyn-m, but I hear it feeds back at high stage noise. We mix electric and acoustic and sometimes it gets loud on stage. I hear consistant great reviews on the K&K Twin Internal and I love the twin pickup idea. I dont however want to drill the endblock in my nice new mandolin. On a $700 Morgan Morgan thats ok..but on a $2500 kentucky master model that idea makes me feel queezy. I love the tapastring vintage jack. No permanent alteration to the mandolin. Has anyone installed the K&K Twin Internal with a Vintage Jack? how did the install go? Do they match up well together? The vintage jack has a stereo wire config.. Can I wire one of the K&K pickups to one wire and the other to the other? will it sound as full as im thinking it will?

**Tavy** · Jun-24-2012, 4:27am

I have wired one in stereo and posted the results here: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...mp-K-in-stereo. IMO it does sound pretty nice in stereo, but it's also hard to find situations that can make use of it.

And there's a problem - if you plug in a mono lead with the pickup wired in stereo then you short out one pickup and only get the output from the other :-(

The solution I adopted was to wire via a push-pull volume control so I could switch between mono and stereo, but that's not an option if you don't want to modify the instrument.

I haven't tried the vintage jack, but I don't imagine you'd have any issues from the K&K end as I've rewired all my K&K's to new jacks without issue. Oh, and if you're supplying your own jack, then you can buy the external K&K twin and save a few $$$'s. Obviously you need to be handy with the old soldering iron, but that's all.

**Don Grieser** · Jun-24-2012, 7:49am

I'd probably just wire it mono for simplicity's sake. I like the 1/4" jack--just feels more secure, and if you have a cord problem, it's easy to swap out. With the Vintage Jack, you'll need a spare 1/8 to 1/4 cord or a spare adapter. I do like the sound of the K&K through my Radial ToneBone PZ-Pre.

**herbsandspices** · Jun-24-2012, 9:46am

Originally Posted by pickinpete

I dont however want to drill the endblock in my nice new mandolin. On a $700 Morgan Morgan thats ok..but on a $2500 kentucky master model that idea makes me feel queezy.

That feeling goes away the second after you drill it.

**Tavy** · Jun-25-2012, 3:32am

Originally Posted by herbsandspices

That feeling goes away the second after you drill it.

As long as you don't slip

**mandroid** · Jun-26-2012, 12:54pm

Stew Mac has a Hand reamer if the power tool part is what worries you..

Another option use the Stereo wiring ,instead as a Mono Balanced output.

What that gains is a better signal to noise ..as the signal return is the ring connection.

The shield braid in the cable is grounded separate from the signal return.

That is how The Schertler internal pickups are wired..
[same as a Dynamic Microphone]

Being tapered , tapastring jacks will still come out
of the tapered hole, like a regular end pin can, so there is that as well..

**pickinpete** · Jun-27-2012, 2:32pm

No, I have faith in my abilities.. I just didnt wanna do it....to it!

**pickinpete** · Jul-06-2012, 10:49am

Originally Posted by pickinpete

No, I have faith in my abilities.. I just didnt wanna do it....to it!

I did it! No regrets!

**herbsandspices** · Jul-07-2012, 1:02pm

Originally Posted by pickinpete

I did it! No regrets!

Told ya! I have a (perhaps unhealthy) love for drilling holes in my nice instruments.

**CelticDude** · Jul-22-2012, 1:58pm

I just found this thread looking for information on K&K pickups - wow! This seems the perfect solution for me, as I also don't want to drill my Collings MT (talked myself into doing it for my guitar, but I may rethink that, as Tapastrings has jacks for these as well.) I have a question for those who have done this. I'm guessing you would fish the jack wire into the mandolin thru the endpin hole, secure the end pin jack, and then pull the wire thru one of the f-holes and attach it to the K&K pickup. It seems like you could end up with a lot of extra wire that has to go in the mandolin. Is there a way to keep this short that I'm not seeing? How bad would it be to have a bit of extra wire in there? Also I don't need stereo, so I'll wire it mono, which I assume is easy enough to do? Finally, the K&K site warns about losing some sound quality using an 1/8" plug vs 1/4". Have those who use the vintage jack found this to be true?

Thanks

**courses** · Jul-23-2012, 4:47am

I don't have an experience with other pickups except a first generation Fishman in a guitar. But the new K & K that was installed in my KM254 a few weeks ago sure is sounding great to me! Bandmates even complimented me on the tone at its' first gig last week.

**Mandobart** · Jul-23-2012, 1:53pm

Originally Posted by CelticDude

I have a question for those who have done this. I'm guessing you would fish the jack wire into the mandolin thru the endpin hole, secure the end pin jack, and then pull the wire thru one of the f-holes and attach it to the K&K pickup. It seems like you could end up with a lot of extra wire that has to go in the mandolin. Is there a way to keep this short that I'm not seeing? How bad would it be to have a bit of extra wire in there? Also I don't need stereo, so I'll wire it mono, which I assume is easy enough to do? Finally, the K&K site warns about losing some sound quality using an 1/8" plug vs 1/4". Have those who use the vintage jack found this to be true?

I haven't used the vintage jack, but I have wired up many K&K and similar type twin head piezo's in various instruments. A mandolin is a little easier than a fiddle to do, as the f-holes are bigger and there is more room inside to work. The pickups come with the wires attached; you don't attach the wire to the pickup. Rather, you attach the pickup lead(s) to whatever jack you're using. Very first thing you do is carefully mark your bridge position with blue masking tape if you need to remove the tailpiece. Then go thru the process of removing strings, bridge endpin and tailpiece. Next thing you do, or first if you don't need to remove the tailpiece, is mask off the area around the f-holes with blue masking tape to protect the finish. You need to place the pickup with lead wires into the mando thru either f-hole. Run the lead out the endpin jack. This is a lot easier if you first fish something in thru the endpin hole (14 gage solid copper wire or a thicker string, like a D or G) and out the f-hole. Hook/tape the pickup lead(s) to this wire and pull it thru the endpin hole. Now see how much signal lead you need to be able to solder connections up to the tapastring/vintage jack, mono/stereo however you want it. Trim off excess, but if in doubt leave extra. Solder up the connections, being sure to use heat-shrink around the connections to ensure they can't short together if the jack rotates around over time. Install the vintage jack however they tell you to do it. Now place the pickup heads on the underside of the soundboard where the best tone results. The only way to really know where this is is to hook up everything with the p'ups outside the instrument and mess around with placement using blue-tak putty to find where it sounds best. Lacking that, I always try to place the heads directly under where the bridge feet contact the soundboard. Tone bars may get in the way, so get as close as you can. Mount the p'ups using who ever's advice you trust the most. I've always used the putty, as it remains removable, and can be repositioned if desired. I've never had it come loose on its own, and that's 3+ years with something like 10different instruments. Most others use superglue. The best tool I've found for getting them in position is an S-shape violin sound post setter. Good luck!

**CelticDude** · Jul-23-2012, 4:19pm

Thanks for the detailed instructions, MandoBart. I wouldn't (didn't) have thought of some of that. So I'm guessing a bit of excess wire in the mandolin is not a big deal? Good to hear that people like the K&K's. A friend of mine was over on the weekend, and he has some K&K's on the outside of his mando (he bought a violin chinrest clamp and attached the jack to this. No drilling a Gibson for him!). They also sounded pretty good to me.

**almeriastrings** · Jul-24-2012, 12:31am

Originally Posted by CelticDude

Finally, the K&K site warns about losing some sound quality using an 1/8" plug vs 1/4". Have those who use the vintage jack found this to be true?

Thanks

Can see no possible technical reason why that could be true, except if you were using very long, thin cables to the preamp or cheap, nasty quality hardware.... which some might do of course! The 'Vintage Jack' hardware and mini-plug is Switchcraft-made and is very high grade. Use with a good, low capacitance cable, and there should be no difference at all.

I've fitted a couple now, and they were excellent.

**CelticDude** · Jul-25-2012, 9:17am

Originally Posted by almeriastrings

Can see no possible technical reason why that could be true, except if you were using very long, thin cables to the preamp or cheap, nasty quality hardware.... which some might do of course! The 'Vintage Jack' hardware and mini-plug is Switchcraft-made and is very high grade. Use with a good, low capacitance cable, and there should be no difference at all.

I've fitted a couple now, and they were excellent.

Thanks, I couldn't really see a reason either, but the K&K website does mention it. You said the "P-word"; will I need a preamp with this pickup? Is the K&K one a good one to get, since it's "matched" to the pickups? Or will something like the Baggs or one of the Ultrasound ones work as well? This amplifying a mandolin sure gets complicated fast.

**Mike Bunting** · Jul-25-2012, 2:10pm

Originally Posted by CelticDude

Thanks, I couldn't really see a reason either, but the K&K website does mention it. You said the "P-word"; will I need a preamp with this pickup? Is the K&K one a good one to get, since it's "matched" to the pickups? Or will something like the Baggs or one of the Ultrasound ones work as well? This amplifying a mandolin sure gets complicated fast.

The Headway EDB1 is my go-to preamp now. I've used it with K&K on one of my mandos and I see it as necessary for good sound.

**almeriastrings** · Jul-26-2012, 12:12am

Some form of preamp is always required. Whether you need a separate, external preamp, depends, however. Some mixers and some acoustic amps already have built-in preamps that a suitable match for virtually any piezo-type pickup, for example, inputs 3/4 on the little Allen & Heath Zed10fx. That has an very high impedance FET input stage there, plus excellent EQ options. There would be no point in adding in yet another box before it (unless you are using long cable runs). If you have an acoustic amp with a 'passive' pickup input socket, that may also be fine (check the specs, look for something with an input impedance of at least 2, and preferably 5 and up megohms). If you don't have that (or need to run long cables to the desk) then some form of external pre / DI with a suitable input stage is necessary. The Headway mentioned above is excellent. The Baggs Para DI is another option, as are the K&K units. There are quite a lot on the market. If you are handy with a soldering iron and know how to put few components together you can, though, make your own for less than $30 all-in (without EQ). Building in EQ complicates it quite a bit, but a basic FET ultra-high impedance header amp is really very simple.

**CelticDude** · Jul-26-2012, 6:28am

Looking at the specs for the K&K, the input impedance is 1 megaohm (same for the Ultrasound; the Baggs didn't have this listed in the owner's manual.) So I figure either will be fine. But, from your comments, I should hold off and see if my amp really needs it anyway.

I looked at the EDB1, and it looks really nice, almost perfect in fact. It is , however, twice as much as most of the others.

**Mandobart** · Jul-26-2012, 3:59pm

I've used a few different pre-amps with K&K and JJB pickups. My favorite is the K&K pure, for many reasons. Many have posted good results using K&K p'ups without pre-amp. I find it depends on what I'm plugging in to. An acoustic amp made for passive p'ups shouldn't need it. However, I've never found the pre-amp to do anything but enhance the sound and give me more control over the sound.