What happens if no-one pays for music?

[catmandu2]

"Soylent green is pithe!"

-Wittgenstein

[taylor410]

"The challenge for smaller artists is what to sell at a show? A CD that is pricey/cumbersome to produce, and carry and distribute at a venue or something else? A link to a download site? A thumbdrive (smaller but still not cheaper than a CD to produce, right?). I know when I bought the last Punch Brothers album, I got the digital download and the CD followed a week or so later. I don't think I've even unwrapped it."

Jamie--
One increasingly useful option is a download card. My a capella vocal group produced a CD several years back, and we're running out of hard copies. We decided that instead of paying for more hard cd's and cases, that we would make our CD available as a download through CDBaby, and have cards available to sell at gigs. We charge $15 for the CD and $10 for the card (same as it would cost to buy the download online) -- it's a good deal for us.

BTW - I love CDBaby -- they were developed with the specific intent of helping small / independent artists produce their own stuff and be in control of their own products. They are alert to the changes in technology and always seem to be about helping the small artist make use of it. Sure, they keep a little bit for every transaction. But it's small, and I feel that the service they provide us is well worth it. And profits that they make go into developing more resources for independent artists.


and Niles -- HILARIOUS pic from Life of Brian. Nobody commented, but I got it, and it made me spit my coffee.

KE

My main problem with this, or any other form of downloaded music, is the quality. I can't stand the sound of compressed digital formats. I have a hard time with some CD's. I still buy and play vinyl. I have a considerable sum tied up in audio equipment. My amps and preamp are tubed. I guess I'm going to be SOL when the next format takes over.

If it's difficult for a musician to throw a box of CD's in the car, truck or van, then I would say there is another problem somewhere. Just my .02

[Jim]

It seems the only way to make money in music will be to write and play it yourself, and do it well enough people give you money. I made enough last night for lunch today and tomorrow. Good thing I have anpther income.

[Bertram Henze]

Trying to slip into a non-musician's shoes:

- music is easy to do - just insert a CD an ready to go. They can make an infinite number of these - it won't hurt them if I don't pay for this particular one. Why should I pay for something that simple?

- playing music seems to be fun - why should I pay anybody for having fun?

...and out of his shoes again. Ooooh that hurt!

[mnosretep]

Illegally downloading music is a threat and a slap to the face of any musician. One often overlooked market that is thriving larger than ever (from which payment to the artist is removed) is the used market.

[Charlieshafer]

I think we're far closer to the solution than people think. Many of the artists we deal with are already letting record company and management contract expire so they can start making their own independently funded recordings. There's also no reason they can't (and they are starting to) sell downloaded songs off their own sites, bypassing itunes (for the moment, eventually it may be in their best interest to be there anyway) and selling huge master-quality files direct to the consumer. Not any compressed mp3, but the huge 192 mhz/24 bit files that are the equivalent of master tapes. These files can be as large as 90 megabits for a 3 minute song. Those like Taylor410 above will like these files just fine (I, like many here, am also a tube audio/vinyl freak). That way, you need to go directly to the artist's site to get the big file, and all royalties go right in their pocket. What they may lack in volume, they make up for in margin. It's possible they won't even suffer much loss in volume, as how few stores out there carry the exact kind of music any of us like to buy? I've yet to see any of the artists I really like have a cd in a local store..oops, last one just went out of business last week. So long, Cutler's.

Hard cd's, though, will always stay popular with the artists that can afford to make them on their own (thanks, Kickstarter), as it's always a popular buy at a show, as you can get it autographed, and it's a memory that can't be gotten from a download. I still laugh at the inscription one musician wrote to my kids after the show and the dinner/relaxation period: "Listen you nitwits, that was MY pad tai." Can't get that from a download.

Anyway, the only real key to be worked out is the security in limiting copies from the master file, or how to tag it so it doesn't get posted on a secondary site. That's probably the biggest obstacle, but once one hot shot programmer figures that out, the music industry can be back in the hands of the musicians.

[JeffD]

the music industry can be back in the hands of the musicians.

When was that ever the case?

[SincereCorgi]

Interesting essay in the AV Club today, probably inspired by recent discussions of this topic:

http://www.avclub.com/articles/what-...in-2012,81766/

[terzinator]

One often overlooked market that is thriving larger than ever (from which payment to the artist is removed) is the used market.

I thought of this, too. Cheapo Discs & LPs is a shop near me that has a giant used section. I don't think I've ever sold anything back to them, but I certainly buy. And I'd be surprised if much of what I've purchased (CDs, anyway) has been ripped into the previous owner's computer. So, I suppose that's crappy and illegal, too.

And I can't tell you how many friends' LPs I taped back in the day. We used to get together to record albums, and hang out, and party a little, and get all artsy on the cardboard cassette inserts.

Good times. Good, illegal times.

But it was analog, baby. Slow, poor quality, linearly recorded. That was the best. Discwasher. Audio-Technica Stylus cleaner. Now I'm getting all misty-eyed.

[Randi Gormley]

I brought up this subject at lunch today with one of my coworkers who is lead guitar in a legitimate band (they're just putting out their second CD) and he said he didn't mind being ripped off as long as people were listening, which meant they would go to the band's concerts or other gigs and buy tickets and probably their CDs. Of course, he isn't living off his musician's earnings, either. He said he thought what Radiohead did with asking people to pay whatever they wanted for songs seemed an equitable way to go (I'm taking his word for it since I didn't know firsthand what he was talking about, Radiohead not being a band I listen to). He's probably 35 and falls between my generation and that of the intern who didn't know exactly why she felt uncomfortable with stealing all her music. fwiw

[DPrager]

I'm no Luddite and I BUY recorded music. Could it be that music and musicians are simply being forced back into an earlier time. Recorded music simply hasn't been around very long. There may have been music boxes and player pianos, but prior to Edison's cylinders (~1877) there wasn't a mechanism for popular music to be recorded, duplicated and "sold" for private use. Musicians were either artists who were paid to perform or writers whose works might be sold in printed form. I'm guessing that at some time soon, the only way for a musician to make money will be to perform his/her craft in front of a live audience and recorded music as a form of currency will have been a brief historical blip. Is it really so bad?

[Paul Kotapish]

I'm guessing that at some time soon, the only way for a musician to make money will be to perform his/her craft in front of a live audience and recorded music as a form of currency will have been a brief historical blip. Is it really so bad?

Yeah--I think it's so bad. As recently as ten years ago, record sales (in whatever format--CD, cassette, vinyl) could comprise a third or more of gig revenue and made all the difference as to whether a tour or even an individual show was financially successful or not.

Some musicians will still be able to limp by and there will probably continue to be some lingering product sales, but the drastic decline in record sales has negatively impacted all of the professional musicians I know.

I won't belabor the issue, but I'm a firm believer that unauthorized file sharing--often masquerading as a little harmless swapping of mix tapes or CDs--is theft. The medium (analog or digital) or the prices (reasonable or outrageous) and the profit sharing scheme (balance or lopsided) are irrelevant to the core issue.

[Bertram Henze]

Right, I am going to make some bold statements here, beat me for it whoever feels inclined:

1 - whoever claims copyright on a recording of his should first prove that he made sure that either all the music is exclusively his own or that he has paid copyright fees to whose music he used melody snippets or chord progressions from. That would put an end to people on YouTube claiming copyrights for christmas songs, "Happy Birthday to You" etc., as has been mentioned in this other recent thread. It would put an end to practically all claims, in fact, because suddenly no musician would have time to play, sitting in courtrooms all day.

2 - since the only people gaining from point 1 would be lawyers, musicians might be happier in the long run if all property rights on music disappeared instead of hampering their exchange. I agree that technical equipment, materials and wourking hours for recording should be compensated, but how much is that with today's technology? You get in a quiet room for two days (say, $1000 per person per day), use the computer and mike you have anyway ($0) and put it online. Division by 1 million expected downloads results in less that 1 ct per download. You'd have to do new recordings all the time, but the expectation to sit on your sofa (maybe practising 2 hrs per day) for weeks living on the proceedings of 2 days' work is unjust, compared to all those who have to put in 8+ hrs every day to earn their living.

3 - Personally, I play music because it is for my soul, not my stomach. In the rare occasions on which I aquire recordings I pay for them. But mostly, I play myself. I never claim posession of any music since it is not mine, not even if I composed it because then my soul would have heard it elsewhere; I might as well claim posession of wind and sunshine.

[Fretbear]

I'm guessing that at some time soon, the only way for a musician to make money will be to perform his/her craft in front of a live audience and recorded music as a form of currency will have been a brief historical blip. Is it really so bad?

It's not about if it's good or bad. It's about how things are.
You can say that it is bad that you can only buy mini-florescent light bulbs now with "new and improved" mercury in every one of them, and you may be right, but so what? Incandescent bulbs are history.
You can say "I made millions of dollars (or cents) from that record..." Well if you still can, then go for it....
One's attitude will be forged by their experiences. When I started my first recording, it was onto a high-quality chrome cassette tape in a Fostex 4 track, and was mastered to a Sony mini-disc. I reproduced it as CD's and cassettes. My second was recorded digitally to an 18 track DAW. I have spent way more to record those projects than I will ever recoup from them. I well understand that people who used to see real money in the past from their recordings believe it should stay that way, but I would also like to not get old and need glasses to read anything, but it's not going to happen, sad but true.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

...the expectation to sit on your sofa (maybe practising 2 hrs per day) for weeks living on the proceedings of 2 days' work is unjust, compared to all those who have to put in 8+ hrs every day to earn their living.

I agree with your other points, but this is a bit unjust. I don't think any full time musician has this expectation.

Cheers
MRT

[Bertram Henze]

I don't think any full time musician has this expectation.

At least, some might dream of it, if not really expect it. It's the image people like Michael Jackson and the Rolling Stones have helped to erect. Of course, musicians whose music made them rich are an exception, but does not everybody dream of being an exception, too?

Of course, musicians fill that time with other musical activities such as performing or teaching, but these activities' revenue is not endangered by copyright issues.

[Fred Keller]

Practice hours are never compensated but certainly contribute to the product. Nobody pays musicians, artists, writers, etc. for practice--hours upon hours--but in order to achieve the vision, that's what's necessary. Nobody pays artists for hauling the gear around or schlepping to the venue. So the "quiet two hours" spent in front of a microphone is really the tip of the iceberg in terms of commitment.

I'm NOT a full-time gigging musician yet but I've been close a few times. And I know damn well that the 2 hours of recording or 2 hours of gigging I might do in a day doesn't come close to comprising the amount of time one needs to spend in a day to maintain a certain level of professionalism. Unless you're the cream of the crop, you've got marketing, sales, web presence, print advertising, phone calls, contract negotiations, and a host of other little tasks to keep you busy for the day. THAT's what a working musician gets paid for and that's ON TOP of practice. Performance is the reward--it's free. The money I charge goes to compensate me for the grind I need to go through to stay good.

It's wonderful that so many people play music for fun, keep traditions alive on front porches, share tunes and turn each other on to new ideas. But it's a little unfair to imply that an artist's labor is not equal to anyone else's labor. It's a little unfair to imply that art should be done for love. It's a little unfair to imply that real work and art are not comparable.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

...but does not everybody dream of being an exception, too?

Perhaps, but that's true of any field. Retire early, own something from a distance, etc. Anyway, I more meant that no professional musicians I've met play a couple of hours a day and expect to make it on that. There's much more that goes into it. Usually. Surely a very few escape with luck, but mostly it's a hard-working life.

Cheers
MRT

[Bertram Henze]

Unless you're the cream of the crop, you've got marketing, sales, web presence, print advertising, phone calls, contract negotiations, and a host of other little tasks to keep you busy for the day.

In a production company, these are tasks considered necessary but without direct revenue - they are supposed to be supported by the core money earned by the core product, whatever that may be. Therefore, in any business I have seen the core must be bigger than what surrounds it for the whole to be solid.
Considering this, I wonder how such a fragile business concept as a musician can survive at all - and from what you all say, I guess it often can't. It seems to me that minimizing the efforts put in marketing/sales/etc. and producing more core (i.e. music) would improve the situation. I guess musicians who sell themselves to record companies are doing kind of exactly this, gaining core value but losing independence (this is also true for other trades).

If somebody asks me why I do something non-musical for a living, I say that's what I can do best and (important!) most reliably.
If this means being "cream of the crop", maybe that is really a requirement for being a pro? In music, it seems to be hard to hide in some inconspicuous nine-to-five.

Please note that I am "guessing" quite often - that is my learned physicist's way of exploring reality. Both my parents were professionals, and I always missed the true happiness with music in their life. Maybe this is my chance to find out what's been going on back then.

[Pete Summers]

Seems to me that there's a pervasive attitude among music consumers that if they steal music they're not hurting artists. How do we as loyal fans/amateurs/pros/semi-pros combat that? If I had a pat answer I'd give it (and probably be a wealthy man). In a very vague sense, there has to be some combination of enticement and punishment. The original article by the NPR write essentially details a felony if the sum of her theft were to be totaled up. How do we convince people that it's wrong to do that (if, indeed, we believe it is wrong)?

How about jail time?

[mandowilli]

[QUOTE=Bertram Henze;1065184]Right, I am going to make some bold statements here, beat me for it whoever feels inclined:

1 - whoever claims copyright on a recording of his should first prove that he made sure that either all the music is exclusively his own or that he has paid copyright fees to whose music he used melody snippets or chord progressions from.

Chord progressions are not copyrightable, only lyrics and melody.

[bobby bill]

Nobody pays artists for hauling the gear around or schlepping to the venue.

Actually, when someone asks what I would charge to play (doesn't happen often), I tell them that I'll play for free but it will cost X amount to haul all the gear down and back.

[Bertram Henze]

Chord progressions are not copyrightable, only lyrics and melody.

Those fine distinctions will only be argued about in court or between lawyers and expert witnesses - that's a game I would not even want to enter. My point was that it's not home recording that kills music, it's legal greed.

[Bertram Henze]

Actually, when someone asks what I would charge to play (doesn't happen often), I tell them that I'll play for free but it will cost X amount to haul all the gear down and back.

"fair enough, our truck will arrive at your place to haul you and everything else to our venue. Expect us on Friday night"

[taylor410]

Nobody pays artists for hauling the gear around or schlepping to the venue.

You would be surprised at some of the negotiations that go on. Many times musicians ask for travel expense, accomodations, etc. I was talking with Will Hoge's people once. They wanted 5K for the band to play. Plus travel expenses, accomodations, possible rental car, etc...... I told them we were a House Concert series and there was no way.... They couldn't grasp the idea of a house concert with 20 - 40 people....... All I was inquirying about was Will himself in an acoustic setting.