What happens if no-one pays for music?

**OldSausage** · Jun-21-2012, 2:27pm

It would be worth your while to read the article, it addresses a lot of the issues you raised quite specifically.

**otterly2k** · Jun-21-2012, 2:33pm

Justus -
I strongly encourage you to read the original articles. The conversation here has spun off a number of tangents that are relevant but not quite the core of the original articles -- which have to do with the current culture of the "download generation" expecting to be able to download music for free, and the impact of that on musicians... and what should or should not be done about it.

Not that your post wasn't interesting... but you are mostly addressing the issue of recording contracts and labels vs independent artists and the original issue was more about how free downloading and sharing of music is impacting the industry, in particular the artists (whether labeled or indie).

**farmerjones** · Jun-21-2012, 2:35pm

This thread has prompted me into looking a bit deeper. Y'all know RIAA, they certify Gold, & Platinum releases, etc. I figured a good place to check the pulse on the monetary side of music. I figure if poo really did hit the fan they would roll the figures back so it would be easier to get Gold or Platinum certification. Nope.

http://www.riaa.com/keystatistics.ph...ipment-Numbers

Scroll down the the 2nd page of the 2010-2011 U.S. report for a good briefing.
What i get is there was a down turn, but recent growth. Yes, someone is in fact paying for music. There's still the Brad Paisley and Taylor Swift types, and if you want to pay the price, you can be one too.

Search on my busking posts - FJ says, it's actually just as easy to get a real gig. Busking = Uninvited. That's all FJ's gonna say. FJ's gone crazy. FJ's typing in 3rd person.

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 2:41pm

Originally Posted by mandolirius

Actually busking has gone pro. There are major festivals devoted to buskers. I don't really understand how people can be flown around the world, paid a fee and still be called buskers but nevertheless, there it is. With the advent of juggling and other circus arts, it's acutally hard to be a busker around these parts. The prime tourist strip is now juried. You have to audition for the right to busk there and if accepted, pay a nearly two-hundred dollar license fee. People actually aspire to a careers in busking. There is a rise in one-man (person) bands and a global culture around it. There's even a coffee table book.

I doubt you'll find this in many major cities. Certainly not enough to support many musicians like playing club and hotel circuits in the past. If they can earn a living, cool.

I really think I just rode the wave of baby boomers (BBs). When I started the clubs were everywhere and after 2:00am it was like rush hour on the roads. As the BBs aged, and started having children it slowed down a bit and has been droping off as time goes bye. Demographics and new technological options have all but eliminated the ability to earn any kind of living playing live music.

**otterly2k** · Jun-21-2012, 2:47pm

btw-- I forwarded the article links to my partner's teenaged sons, both of whom are musicians (one starting at Berklee in the fall) and also copious free downloaders. I'm trying to encourage them to think it through a little bit. Will be interesting to see what happens (or if they'll even discuss it with me).

Also, FWIW - Even if the "download generation" is disproportionately within a younger age demographic... I think it is a mistake to lay the responsibility for this on "kids these days". First of all, people of any age with the right equipment can (and do) participate in it. And also... kids these days are responding to the context around them. They are inheriting the culture (and its mechanisms + values) that we older ones created (directly or indirectly).

**catmandu2** · Jun-21-2012, 2:48pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

...after 2:00am it was like rush hour on the roads.

Still is where I live--I imagine the vast majority are inebriated. If you wanna play rock or country, the gigs are there--a pretty depressing culture, the clubs, if you ask me. Folk music usually occurs more by light of day, or is over by 11

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 2:54pm

Originally Posted by Laird

I couldn't disagree more. People playing music in public spaces (whether the case is open or not) is a gift to the community, helping create a vibrant, lively, exciting atmosphere. I don't get to cities very often--maybe two or three times a year--but when I do, I'm always drawn to the experience of street music (whether I like the performance or not). It's a celebration!

Most of the gigs my band accepts are community events in one of the local villages, and when we do get paid we usually pass along the money to the local food shelf. For us, it's about sharing the fun, serving the community, and creating an atmosphere that will leave people smiling--especially the kids.

The message I'm replying to leaves me feeling very sad. I understand the difference between someone playing on the street trying to support herself and others (like me) playing as a gift, but it comes back to the point I made earlier about music as a commodity. Commodification has the potential to turn even the most beautiful of acts into an exchange that will leave some people feeling bitter.

You're not disagreeing with me that busking is, in large, not a money making endever are you? My comment pertained to making income as a player. I can see how you can disagree about the degradation though.

**Mike Bunting** · Jun-21-2012, 2:57pm

Originally Posted by mandolirius

Actually busking has gone pro. There are major festivals devoted to buskers. I don't really understand how people can be flown around the world, paid a fee and still be called buskers but nevertheless, there it is. With the advent of juggling and other circus arts, it's acutally hard to be a busker around these parts. The prime tourist strip is now juried. You have to audition for the right to busk there and if accepted, pay a nearly two-hundred dollar license fee. People actually aspire to a careers in busking. There is a rise in one-man (person) bands and a global culture around it. There's even a coffee table book.

Yes indeed. There are 4 or 5 Street Performers festivals in Alberta alone, the largest being the Edmonton International Street Performers Festival. The Edinburgh International SP Festival in Scotland is one of many in the U.K. and others all over Europe, the largest being in Belgium.

**Mike Bunting** · Jun-21-2012, 2:59pm

Originally Posted by otterly2k

Also, FWIW - Even if the "download generation" is disproportionately within a younger age demographic... I think it is a mistake to lay the responsibility for this on "kids these days". First of all, people of any age with the right equipment can (and do) participate in it. And also... kids these days are responding to the context around them. They are inheriting the culture (and its mechanisms + values) that we older ones created (directly or indirectly).

Too true and that's sad.

**Laird** · Jun-21-2012, 2:59pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

You're not disagreeing with me that busking is, in large, not a money making endever are you? My comment pertained to making income as a player. I can see how you can disagree about the degradation though.

Right, the degradation part.

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 3:01pm

Originally Posted by AlanN

I don't see busking as degrading or humiliating, at all. Been known to toss a bill or 2 in the case myself. And if I see a mando picker doing it, all the better.

I always throw money into an open case or tip the intertainment in clubs but I won't play in public for a handful of change. I'd rather stay home and play what I like, but that's just me.

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 3:14pm

Originally Posted by catmandu2

Still is where I live--I imagine the vast majority are inebriated. If you wanna play rock or country, the gigs are there--a pretty depressing culture, the clubs, if you ask me. Folk music usually occurs more by light of day, or is over by 11

I played plenty of rock, county and top 40 because you could earn a living playing dance music. I never could understand how you can make a living (home, cars, retirement) playing "folk in the light of day".

I remember moving to the west coast when I was about 24 and thinking how cool it would be playing in the musical "hot spots" but found the only people making money were the ones who were on the road. Same with Nashville. Maybe that's changed.

Anyway, interesting thread.

**mandolirius** · Jun-21-2012, 3:24pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

I doubt you'll find this in many major cities. Certainly not enough to support many musicians like playing club and hotel circuits in the past. If they can earn a living, cool.

I really think I just rode the wave of baby boomers (BBs). When I started the clubs were everywhere and after 2:00am it was like rush hour on the roads. As the BBs aged, and started having children it slowed down a bit and has been droping off as time goes bye. Demographics and new technological options have all but eliminated the ability to earn any kind of living playing live music.

Actually, you will find it in most major cities. Pro buskers often earn as much or more than any other type of musician. Done well, it's an art and about as far from degrading as I can think. Sitting around in your living room ruminating about the good times gone by strikes me as more so.

Regardless, there is still a living to be made from playing music. The club and bar scene of the past has diminished greatly but there are other types of establishments taking their place. We just talked with the owner of a new joint in town that is a combination restaurant and lounge. They're eager to try some live acoustic music. They've been doing techno/dance stuff on the weekends but want to see how acoustic music goes down with their patrons during the week. I think musicians just need to be more creative when it comes to looking for gigs. It ain't easy but, good ol' days notwithstanding, it's never been easy.

**Fred Keller** · Jun-21-2012, 3:34pm

Busking is a fine and noble thing but it's not a career path. At best it's one of the many revenue streams an artist can use to survive but can it be relied on? Every day? Enough days? Weather and climate certainly play a role as does distance from crowds. I and many fine musicians I know live far enough away so that it would never pay.

The original thread topic is not necessarily about busking, etc. It's about the morality of essentially taking away one reliable revenue stream because technology makes it easy for a large number of people. I believe I am preaching mainly to the choir here; chances are good that most of us on this forum believe an artist is entitled to the fruits of their labors, be it performance of any sort or recorded.

Seems to me that there's a pervasive attitude among music consumers that if they steal music they're not hurting artists. How do we as loyal fans/amateurs/pros/semi-pros combat that? If I had a pat answer I'd give it (and probably be a wealthy man). In a very vague sense, there has to be some combination of enticement and punishment. The original article by the NPR write essentially details a felony if the sum of her theft were to be totaled up. How do we convince people that it's wrong to do that (if, indeed, we believe it is wrong)?

As someone who would like to make more money at music this is of paramount concern to me. To me music is indeed a career--much more than a job, fraught with hard work, requiring utmost dedication and education. If people are going to blithely eliminate this revenue stream because "they want it and they can do it," it's likely I'll have to go back to office cube land. I don't believe artists are required to starve for their art. I also don't believe one is required to be the absolute most elite, talented artist in order to make a living.

And I am saddened and frightened that peoples' ethics have seemingly degenerated to this point. If I saw this woman's garage open and her bicycle sitting there unlocked, do I get to take it? Of course not...

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 3:44pm

Mandolirius, "Its never been easy" Amen brother.

I noticed you and Mike Bunting (both from Canada) say busking is thriving. Is this happening in the US too? I travel around the country quite a bit but haven't seen the phenomenon of a thriving busking community but if it's happening here too, cool. Live music is the best.

**Laird** · Jun-21-2012, 3:53pm

Originally Posted by Fred Keller

And I am saddened and frightened that peoples' ethics have seemingly degenerated to this point. If I saw this woman's garage open and her bicycle sitting there unlocked, do I get to take it? Of course not...

I don't disagree with your point at all, but I do think the analogy here could be more accurate. In that case, the woman's bike would be out in her yard with a "For Sale" sign on it, but out on the sidewalk would be an unlimited number of exact replicas available free of charge.

**catmandu2** · Jun-21-2012, 4:01pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

I played plenty of rock, county and top 40 because you could earn a living playing dance music. I never could understand how you can make a living (home, cars, retirement) playing "folk in the light of day".

Was there ever a time when one could play folk (say, bluegrass or old-time) in the clubs or the hotel circuit? My thinking is that folk music was never very lucrative

**Mike Bunting** · Jun-21-2012, 4:10pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

Mandolirius, "Its never been easy" Amen brother.

I noticed you and Mike Bunting (both from Canada) say busking is thriving. Is this happening in the US too? I travel around the country quite a bit but haven't seen the phenomenon of a thriving busking community but if it's happening here too, cool. Live music is the best.

I wouldn't say thriving but there certainly are people making a go of it. A friend of mine has a few busking sites in town, for which he buys a permit and works pretty much every day. He also manages to host and open stage weekly too for which he is not compensated. He will take gigs but generally eschews playing in bars.

**250sc** · Jun-21-2012, 4:13pm

Originally Posted by catmandu2

Was there ever a time when one could play folk (say, bluegrass or old-time) in the clubs or the hotel circuit? My thinking is that folk music was never very lucrative

No, not that I can remember. Playing dance music was the most feasable way to work.

**catmandu2** · Jun-21-2012, 4:20pm

I was thinking you were saying something else 250. My misunderstanding

**Fred Keller** · Jun-21-2012, 4:22pm

Laird: Mine may not be good but I'm not sure I agree that's a better analogy. Theoretically, ALL the music she stole was for sale somewhere. Much of what she copied was in the radio station, another chunk she got from friends. She ostensibly knew that the music should have been paid for otherwise why the sorta kinda mea culpa (or "yeah, I did it...so what") article?

So it wasn't as if there were truly "free" copies of it around. There were just easily available copies of it around. She chose to take and not pay. If recorded music was actually free of charge, the person who put a price tag on it would be at the least optimistic to a fault. Like I said before, I may be the dinosaur here and that's fine with me. I only know one way to do this: if the artist puts a price tag on it, I ought to pay. If I can pay the artist directly, so much the better.

**mandolirius** · Jun-21-2012, 4:25pm

Originally Posted by 250sc

Mandolirius, "Its never been easy" Amen brother.

I noticed you and Mike Bunting (both from Canada) say busking is thriving. Is this happening in the US too? I travel around the country quite a bit but haven't seen the phenomenon of a thriving busking community but if it's happening here too, cool. Live music is the best.

Thriving is a funny word. There's a steady busking scene here that a very few folks are able to make a fulltime living from. And the climate is such that a hearty soul could do it year round. That said, I wouldn't advise anyone to move here for a career in busking. I think it's a very hard job. Long hours, sometimes cold, wet and windy working conditions, uncertainty about how much you'll make, rules, bylaws, competition from other buskers (and now an international "buskers" festival for ten days in July).....definitely not an easy life. On the other hand, there's flexible hours, you're working for yourself and the venue isn't going to shut down.

**Laird** · Jun-21-2012, 4:25pm

Originally Posted by Fred Keller

If I can pay the artist directly, so much the better.

No disagreement here.

**mandolirius** · Jun-21-2012, 4:35pm

Originally Posted by Fred Keller

Laird: Mine may not be good but I'm not sure I agree that's a better analogy. Theoretically, ALL the music she stole was for sale somewhere. Much of what she copied was in the radio station, another chunk she got from friends. She ostensibly knew that the music should have been paid for otherwise why the sorta kinda mea culpa (or "yeah, I did it...so what") article?

So it wasn't as if there were truly "free" copies of it around. There were just easily available copies of it around. She chose to take and not pay. If recorded music was actually free of charge, the person who put a price tag on it would be at the least optimistic to a fault. Like I said before, I may be the dinosaur here and that's fine with me. I only know one way to do this: if the artist puts a price tag on it, I ought to pay. If I can pay the artist directly, so much the better.

My view on this is that too much emphasis is being placed on the morals of downloaders. I don't think it necessarily represents a breakdown in the fabric of society. The trouble is that the music is available for free, to her and anyone else who wants it and it's hard to resist "free". Here's another analogy. You're walking down the street on your way to the local record shop to purchase something. Two doors down, someone is moving and has put out a box of records labeled "FREE". Right on top you see the very album you were intending to purchase. Do you take it?

**catmandu2** · Jun-21-2012, 4:38pm

Originally Posted by Fred Keller

And I am saddened and frightened that peoples' ethics have seemingly degenerated to this point. If I saw this woman's garage open and her bicycle sitting there unlocked, do I get to take it? Of course not...

Fred, I'm not sure that we, as human beings collectively, have relaxed our ethical values generally to this degree. Certainly in the "age of absurdity" we have seen that some are willing to equivocate and that institutions are often not what they seem. Yet I see the problem as one of lack of education. I think people are intellectually lazy more than they are without ethical values: the world is wearisome and can make one cynical to the point of "i better get mine before someone else gets it and deprives me...". The problem is orientation, as I see it. I think people generally want to do good--they just don't know how, in such a complex and challenging world. Finding out how takes work--while the powers and seduction of ignorance are great