’25 Gibson Junior - upgrade or factory refit?

**Reggie B.** · Jun-19-2012, 11:47am

I’ve enjoyed reading the forums – always learn something.

Now I have a question:
I recently bought a ’25 Gibson Junior which was priced very reasonably because it has a replacement tuners, a replacement tail piece and a natural re-finish. But it is fun to play and sounds very nice, so I’m happy.

But now I am looking at it more carefully. The natural finish appears to be old – maybe as old as the mandolin. The tuners are Kluson Deluxe, and are also old. And the tailpiece is an engraved ‘The Gibson’ type, also old.

It seems strange that someone would upgrade a Junior like this, especially if it was done long ago. Is there a chance that it came from the factory like this? Maybe as an upgraded Junior or as a factory refit?

Any insight is appreciated.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-19-2012, 12:12pm

I am pretty sure that Klusons did not exist in the 20's so I doubt that any of that was original when it was made. It is possible that the mandolin was sent back to Gibson in the 1940s or 50s and they may have put those Klusons on and refinished it. If you sent instruments back to Gibson even in the 1960s they would often refinish them in the current flavor. I had a friend who had a 1920s L-1 guitar that had been sent back for a cherry sunburst in the 1960s. Too bad, too. It did play and sound nicely tho.

You could also check to see if there are other screw holes that the ones that the Klusons use.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-19-2012, 12:14pm

Originally Posted by Reggie B.

...Is there a chance that it came from the factory like this? Maybe as an upgraded Junior or as a factory refit?

Any insight is appreciated.

It's easier for us to all conjecture wildly if there are pictures. Is there a chance that it was a factory rebuild? There is always a chance.

**barney 59** · Jun-19-2012, 12:16pm

Why not? Don't many of us do that with our new shiny mandolins? Refinish is a little radical but how many people have installed a James tailpiece or upgraded tuners on their mandolin, had the braces scalloped on their guitars or inlay added? This isn't a new idea, in the 60's and 70's the 1st time in your life that you got a little money you went to Manny's and bought a Martin, and off the shelf at that,(At Manny's you tried out the Martin of your choice off the wall and when you decided you liked it they went to the backroom and brought you out one just like it and sent you home with that!) then took it someplace and got it customized, bridge pins for sure but also with maybe a little bit of inlay,or with what would now be considered a really ugly pickguard. It seemed to me to be a pretty common and normal thing to do,at least it was with the people that I knew. This "Vintage" and original thing is kind of a new idea. "Personalizing" instruments is probably as old as instruments.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-19-2012, 12:18pm

Jim, Lloyd Loar is in this picture on the right. If you blow it up you'll note what appears to be the outline of a set of Kluson Deluxe tuners in his right pocket. That's proof enough for me.

Click image for larger version.

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**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-19-2012, 12:21pm

From what is being described it sounds more like a factory type of rebuild, again I would rather see the pictures. I had a 1932 F2 come through my hands that had returned to the factory in the 60's and had been fitted with the 60's tailpiece, the tuners, and the thick poly finish. Anything is possible.

**brunello97** · Jun-19-2012, 1:00pm

Originally Posted by barney 59

Why not? ... "Personalizing" instruments is probably as old as instruments.

I recall a photo on an old Ry Cooder record of Atta Isaacs and the "Bud Man" decal that he had slapped on his. Awesome.

Mick

**Brutus1999** · Jun-20-2012, 7:57am

You remember Manny's ? Now that takes me back to mimeographed catalogs (I still have one) and $75 for "student quality" Gibsons ..

Everything changes ... http://lostnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/...music-row.html

Originally Posted by barney 59

Why not? Don't many of us do that with our new shiny mandolins? Refinish is a little radical but how many people have installed a James tailpiece or upgraded tuners on their mandolin, had the braces scalloped on their guitars or inlay added? This isn't a new idea, in the 60's and 70's the 1st time in your life that you got a little money you went to Manny's and bought a Martin, and off the shelf at that,(At Manny's you tried out the Martin of your choice off the wall and when you decided you liked it they went to the backroom and brought you out one just like it and sent you home with that!) then took it someplace and got it customized, bridge pins for sure but also with maybe a little bit of inlay,or with what would now be considered a really ugly pickguard. It seemed to me to be a pretty common and normal thing to do,at least it was with the people that I knew. This "Vintage" and original thing is kind of a new idea. "Personalizing" instruments is probably as old as instruments.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-20-2012, 8:08am

Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton

Jim, Lloyd Loar is in this picture on the right. If you blow it up you'll note what appears to be the outline of a set of Kluson Deluxe tuners in his right pocket. That's proof enough for me.

Mike: Can't you see that that is a set of no-lined Klusons? It is obvious to me. Either that or an engraved silver flask.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-20-2012, 8:18am

Ah, Manny's... I don't recall ever buying much there besides strings. I did most of my shopping at the other shops before Sam Ash bought everything. It is interesting that link about Manny's closing and Music Row shutting down. Manny's was bought out by Sam Ash years ago. I think Rudy's and Alex music's repair shop is the only other non-Ash store on 48th Street. I bought my first new Martin in 1976 from the unfortunately named Terminal Music. I wanted a D-28 and the salesguy took my down to the basement to try five of them. I bought the one I liked. Perhaps at one time it would have been a new one from the stockroom but I highly doubt even that.

I think by the 1970s some of us in New York City were becoming aware of the concept of vintage. By then Matt Umanov was in the Village and Mandolin Brothers were already out in Staten Island.

There still was that attitude that Barney mentions. There was a violin guy that some of us went to in Queens who would always refinish the instrument when you brought it to him. He prob ruined more violins than you could shale a bow at.

Sorry for the thread derailment. Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-20-2012, 12:22pm

Originally Posted by Jim Garber

Mike: Can't you see that that is a set of no-lined Klusons? It is obvious to me. Either that or an engraved silver flask.

I'm certain I can see the lines and oil hole. Either that or I can't.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-20-2012, 1:04pm

Also a 1909 Indian head penny.

**Reggie B.** · Jun-20-2012, 4:54pm

Original poster here.

Thanks for the information. I looked into the tuners, and they were made in the '60s, so that answers the question about this being an original factory upgrade. I like the idea that one of the previous owners spent his allowance to personalize. Maybe I'll do the same. First thing might be to replace the shoestring strap.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-20-2012, 9:26pm

Reggie, the tuners could be from the very late 40's to the late 60's. We knew they weren't original. If you could post a picture we could tell you if we think the retrofit was done at the factory. You really need to post a picture for that. Gibson had a habit of "updating" mandolins sent in for repairs.