Y.a.f.q.

**belbein** · Jun-17-2012, 8:14pm

Alas, yet another finish question. I've followed one set of suggestions only now to discover that it's dead wrong. So now I need some advice on how to proceed.

For one reason and another, I put Waterlock Sealer and Finisher on my Saga as a varnish. Multiple coats, light sanding between. (I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't need a lot of advice about what I should have done instead of instead of Waterlocks, instead of Varnish, instead of building a Saga, etc etc etc. That's not helpful. What I really need is advice given where I actually am!)

So, given multiple coats of varnish ... now what?

**Stephen Perry** · Jun-17-2012, 8:31pm

Is there something wrong? That's a penetrating Tung oil based finish. Generally one simply leaves the finish as it is, lets it gradually dry out. It will get a bit duller I expect. If you level again, you can try using a French polish technique on it with more finish, just glaze on the lightest coat and buff. It's a self-healing, never quite hard finish.

**belbein** · Jun-18-2012, 7:11am

Well, the "finish" on the "finish" was my question. What was wrong was that someone told me to use lacquer over the varnish to get a shine and protect the lacquer. As I was getting ready to spray it on yesterday, I happened to look at the instructions and saw "Do not spray over varnished wood." Which left me unsure about the last step. I'm perfectly happy to learn that I'm AT the last step, because I am, as they say in the South, "done."

When you say "French polish" technique, does that mean just polishing what I've got? Or am I putting on another coat and buffing that down?

AND: Will this varnish finish stand up to the heat of my arm, to the sweat of Atlanta August, and the occassional spilled shot of Wild Turkey?

**MikeEdgerton** · Jun-18-2012, 7:14am

Frank Ford's article on French Polishing on www.frets.com can be found here.

**Stephen Perry** · Jun-18-2012, 8:03am

French polishing on small instrument - I use a little of the finish on some cotton with mineral oil drop in the middle. I don't know whether it works on your finish.

I would not spray lacquer - what point in using soft finish then put hard on top?

The finish will likely imprint, wear, and otherwise prove troublesome if your standards are high. If you like worn things, it's likely to be more than OK.

Keep in mind that you used a finish intended for other uses than instruments, and are asking about it's use on instruments among instrument makers. I have not used it. I hadn't heard of it. Generally I like not having penetration into the wood on instruments. Maybe it works.

**sunburst** · Jun-18-2012, 11:25am

Apparently, the Waterlox Sealer and Finisher is a long oil varnish, made from tung oil and who-knows-what (but it really doesn't matter) resins. I would expect that a fairly good finish could be built up by rubbing successive very (very) thin coats. It might get sticky in the Atlanta heat under a sweaty forearm, but it might not, given plenty of cure time.
I have used Waterlox, back in my cabinet shop days, in the last half of the last century, but it may have been a different product, I don't recall it being "sealer and finisher", and it was a pretty good, fast, easy finish for wooden drawer fronts, cabinet doors and such. How does that translate to what it would be like on an instrument? I don't know, but one (of many) thing I've learned is that when I don't think something will work, I'm not surprised when someone shows me otherwise. Someone, somewhere has undoubtedly tried Waterlox on an instrument, and undoubtedly gotten good results. Could I do it? ...doubt it. Can you do it? ...remains to be seen.

**belbein** · Jun-18-2012, 1:54pm

"Generally I like not having penetration into the wood on instruments. Maybe it works."

Why not? I'm assuming you're talking about varnish/shellac, not about dye?

**sunburst** · Jun-18-2012, 2:16pm

Actually, most finishes penetrate the wood to one degree or another, mostly about the same, but violin makers tend to use sealers that perhaps penetrate less to avoid finish being "in the wood", and keep it mostly above the surface. They claim more control over damping effects of the finish, and they are out of my realm of knowledge at that point.
The penetrating oil finishes that manufacturers tout and being far superior to thick finishes lying on the surface of the wood, well, that's mostly "sales speak". Most "oil finishes" are actually oil varnishes thinned enough for easy rubbing, and they don't penetrate any more than other finishes. In many cases, how a finish is applied is more important to it's appearance, durability, and many other characteristics than what the finish is, so expert application is the key to good finish work.
I might suggest reading Bob Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing. It is a very comprehensive overview of the various wood finishing materials, the science of how they work, what they do well and not so well, how to apply them, etc.. If you read, understand, and remember everything in that book, you'll know far more about wood finishing that I do despite my years of experience. (And that's just the stuff he wrote down!)

**Grommet** · Jun-18-2012, 3:56pm

Given the description of the penetrating, oil based finish you have applied, it sounds somewhat similar to a Tru Oil finish which has been debated and described often on these pages. I would try a Cafe search for Tru Oil finishes and see how others have completed them. They have proved simple and effective for many. It may mean just allowing cure time, or more likely hand buffing/polishing with a tiny bit of additional Waterlox (and possibly a very small bit of mineral oil or walnut oil as a lubricant) on a soft pad in the French Polish manner (do check Frank's page on this), follwed by cure time. Note that French polish generally is done with shellac, but I think it is just the application technique that is being suggested to you here. I would be hesitant to overcoat with shellac or any type of firm finish at this point, given the soft nature of the base coat. Enjoy.

Scott

**Tommando** · Jun-18-2012, 6:47pm

I haven't used Waterlox, but I have used a different tung oil finish (Formby's) as a sealer and finish on my speed necks. The reason is that it protects the wood from damp conditions - in Atlanta that means humidity and sweat. It takes a number of coats to build up the finish and it does rub off a little bit over time, but I just add another coat or two once a year and it looks better than before. On one of my guitars the neck started off very well sanded and this stuff built into a hard glass-like finish with about 5 coats. I don't see it rubbing off at all. The whole purpose was to get the lacquer off, so I don't see any reason to put any on.

**Bill Snyder** · Jun-18-2012, 10:18pm

This quote is from another thread a few years back.

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Waterlox is excellent over stains to lock them in before using any other finish on top. In the finish trade it's known as a good "tie coat". The tung oil bonds particularly well to lignin and the phenolic bonds particularly well cellulose. Then it's a great intermediary to subsequent coats of almost anything. It's kind of like first plating steel with copper before nickel and then chrome for superior plating adhesion.

**Stephen Perry** · Jun-19-2012, 5:52am

So much depends on what one means by "finish."

I tend to treat the wood a bit (prime). Then seal. Then put on a ground. Then color. Then clear. The sealer I use has specific characteristics that make things happen with the tone that I like. So does the ground. The color doesn't look good to me after soaking into the wood. So another goal (other than sound) is to keep the color from soaking in.

In the above sequence, I'm not sure where wood treatment and prefinishing stop and finishing begins.

My tendency would be to try simply leaving the finish alone for a few years, see how it does. I'm not sure of the goal here.

**belbein** · Jun-19-2012, 6:03am

I'm not sure of the goal either. I just want to finish the finish so I can string it up and play it.

**Charlieshafer** · Jun-19-2012, 6:47am

Long time waterlox user, with the dead brain cells to show for it... It will get hard, but not like a true varnish. It is a strong finish, hence it's use on floors, where I use it the most. You can buff it a little, but it'll never get really "shiny" so don't put too much effort into it. As far as durability, don't worry, it's tough. After an extended time, as in the many months phase, you can put a varnish over it if you desire, but as tung oil has some waxes in it, you really need to give it some time to really harden and set before a top coat can be applied, or else it'll blister (experience talking, here). You haven't ruined anything, it's just a look you may not have been looking for.

**belbein** · Jun-19-2012, 2:51pm

Charlieshafer: You said, "give it some time to really harden and set"--How long should I let it "cure" before taking it down and stringing it?

**Stephen Perry** · Jun-19-2012, 6:31pm

Depends on the finish - when it no longer takes a thumb print and then a bit more time.

Try a UV cabinet - maybe it works on that finish.

**Charlieshafer** · Jun-19-2012, 7:47pm

UV should work well. If that's unavailable, it should harden up in about a week or so, humidity depending. It'll seem like it's setting slow, but then one morning, and bingo, it's all hardened up. You don't need many coats at all of the waterlox, so don't put it on heavy. The key, if it's not too late, is a few thin coats, almost wiping off all excess after it's set a little (as in 15 minutes or so). If it's all done, don't worry, it'll still set, it just takes a little longer. In the end, it's a nice finish, not traditional for instruments, but it should work just fine. Tung oils and linseed oils take a while to set, that's all.