Mildew

[Keith Newell]

I have been a customer and appreciated those in power to make my life a pain or a dream. I will offer some options and they will not be a money sink for either of us. I will reserve the right to fit it in to my schedual. Stuff happens and I will be in contact. the buyer came to me and may or may not undertand how serious the issue is. In my place I woud like someone to workwith me so maybe we can make a lifetime friend.
Keith

[Dale Ludewig]

I think that what a builder, such as you Keith, and what someone else who is not intimate with what's involved and what's going on perceives when looking at an instrument or any other piece of woodworking can be worlds apart. And there's no way the two views can be made equivalent, IMO. I have no idea what someone who is not a woodworker sees when he/she looks at something like an instrument. What I, or another builder, see, when looking at something, has been formed from years of experience dealing with so many details. Your customer probably doesn't understand a fraction of the factors involved in this problem. I think you should do your best to help them understand, but I don't think you should have to take a bath on this, based on what you've described. And yes, the material costs involved are trivial compared to the labor. Please keep us posted.

[bmac]

You certainly have a right to not honor the warranty. But I think it would make good business sense to do so anyway. Or if you can't do that then offer him a discount on what repairs are necessary. Hopefully he will have leaarned a lesson on care of instruments.

Mold is easily removed from wood items with vinegar and water and drying in the open air. The main thing is to get the offending instrument out of your work area and into the dry open air. The spores will die naturally and much quicker with the vinegar and water treatment.

[sunburst]

Vinegar, water, and open air can do nothing to repair any damage already done to hide glue from fungus, and in fact the acetic acid in vinegar can dissolve cured hide glue. I'd like to see the source of the info about spores dying naturally, and vinegar hastening the process. Spores are very tough and difficult to kill.

[MikeEdgerton]

Did we ever determine if an ozone treatment (they do this in a machine with hockey equipment) at a hockey rink could kill the mildew? There was some discussion about this. There was a rash of Martin warranty work after the Nashville floods as well.

[sunburst]

Killing mildew or mold is surely easier, by whatever method, than killing the spores. Sunlight (UV) is pretty effective on the fungus itself, but the spores can survive. I've read of spores surviving autoclaves (I was a biology major in school, and worked in biology and chemistry labs for a while after college). It is the spores that make fungi able to survive so many thing so well. The most effective common strategy to avoid degradation from fungi is to avoid the conditions they like to grow in, and suddenly we're right back to taking good care of our instruments, and especially avoiding moisture and high humidity. Spores can lie dormant for years, until the proper conditions of moisture, darkness, and temperature are present, and then they can bloom into more fungus. (Something to think about when storing instruments in a basement.)

[MikeEdgerton]

We have a bunch of conversations regarding the ozone thing. I just can't recall the outcome.

[John McCoy]

Revisiting the very plausible suggestion that this instrument was damaged in the tsunami:

All I know about homeowner's insurance in Japan is that they have. BUT, if the mandolin was damaged in a catastrophic weather event in the US (that might include our own tsunami, or a tornado, windstorm, or flood), some policies would cover it. It would depend on state regulations, as well as the coverage the homeowner has. But it might be worth contacting the owner and try to find out whether s/he can place a claim. (Here, at least, a surprising number of people have little clue as to their coverage and often have to be prodded to inquire.) In the best-case scenario, the person would get a brand new Newell mandolin, and you'd get your full retail price for it (probably don't want to hold your breath on that one, though). There's also the possibility that the insurance company acknowledges a partial claim and then nobody can try to blame you for building a sub-par instrument. (revision: nobody can try to blame you in good conscience.)

[otterly2k]

Much wisdom here, and no need to repeat it.
My only suggestion is to choose words carefully- in particular, the word "abuse" can carry an accusatory tone and imply that the person caused the damage with knowledge or intention, and now expects you to fix it. While that might be the case, it is just as likely (or more so) that it was more a situation of neglect or lack of knowledge or even possibly a situation that the customer couldn't control.

In the interest of avoiding hurt feelings and bad press, I think just explaining what the warranty does cover (workmanship, material flaws) and that this damage was clearly caused by the conditions the mandolin experienced (too much humidity over time, string tension after the problem was noted, etc.), might be a way to keep things clear while avoiding accusing the customer of abuse, neglect or stupidity.

[Pete Summers]

From my Kentucky mandolin's "Limited Warranty:"

"This warranty does not cover any instrument which has been altered or modified or damaged through misuse, negligence, accident or improper operation."

That seems to me a typical instrument warranty. Notice the terms "misuse, negligence." "Abuse" may be a loaded term as otterly2k notes, but "misuse" amounts to the same thing. In any case, allowing a mandolin to accumulate such mold as to require it to be put in a plastic bag, and keeping it strung up to tension after a loose brace is noticed, is, at the very least, negligence, IMO. I'm sure Saga and most manufacturers would agree.

FWIW, my warranty also exempts "shipping damages." I presume the carrier would be liable for those.

In any case, I stand by my position that the maker in this case should not repair the damage for free, but in the interest of customer relations, might suggest a replacement at a somewhat discounted price.

[bmac]

OK... I suppose the spores will live forever, but unless the instrument is kept, once again, in a moist situation they will not act up again. But what can you do about them if you don't know they are there and are not acting up?

Maybe before giving the repaired mandolin back you should squirt some spor activator juice into it. It'll give him a case of hives he'll never forget.

[mandomedic]

Keith: I think the best opinions have already been expressed here, but I think you should rule this one outside of waranty. It's one thing to have a brace come loose, it's another to leave it strung up for months and then decide to deal with it. Plus, there my be a health issue for you to work on an instrument with so much mildew/mold. I would try to explain that you will repair it and it will cost XX but I certainly would not allow this person to get off with no consequences due to abuse. I've always known you to be a fair and reasonable person, so I'm sure what ever you do, will be the right way to go..

[Keith Newell]

Thanks Ken, I appreciate your insight. I sent you a private message.
Keith

[dcoventry]

Keith: I think the best opinions have already been expressed here, but I think you should rule this one outside of waranty. It's one thing to have a brace come loose, it's another to leave it strung up for months and then decide to deal with it. Plus, there my be a health issue for you to work on an instrument with so much mildew/mold. I would try to explain that you will repair it and it will cost XX but I certainly would not allow this person to get off with no consequences due to abuse. I've always known you to be a fair and reasonable person, so I'm sure what ever you do, will be the right way to go..

In a word.......yep.

[bryce]

If the buyer decides to go public with bad revues, you can counter it with your own revue of the mandolin with pictures on your website under a page labeled; WORK NOT COVER UNDER WARRENTY,showing the abuse this instrument recieved.With 77 instruments behind you, If the buying public can see the abuse this mandolin recieved, I don't think it would turn them from buying your work.
When the abuse is this obvious, I wouldn't offer warrenty. Possible discount at best.

[Rvl]

I guess this is my mandolin we are talking about
It was ordered 3 years ago and delivered 2.5 years ago
I played it everyday and it hung on the wall in my living room
It wasn't abused
The case was kept in a closet,so the mildew smell came from the case
I have lived in Japan for 20 years and yes the humidity is high , but similar to the southern States

Thanks and hope everything works out for everybody
I have 60 instruments and the Newell mandolin hung with honor on 8 hooks in my living room

Robert VanLane

[Mandobart]

Robert - I'm sorry about the problems with your mando. Hope all will be made well soon to your and Keith's satisfaction. Being a fiddler I have to contend with bow mites; kind of like carpet beetles. They eat bow hair up and weaken it. I've taken to scrupulous care of my all instrument cases, to prevent this and other type of damage. In the arid west I'm worried more about humidifying the instrument when in the case as opposed to excess humidity. I don't know what people use to reduce humidity/mold in a case besides some kind of desiccant maybe?

[Jeffff]

As a buyer not a builder my opinion is that this is not a warranty repair. If the customer can not be made to understand this that is not the builders fault. The instrument was made to be used and cared for in a rather specific way for a specific purpose.

The owner may indeed complain and tell everyone how unfair Keith is and how he won't stand behind his work. That can't be helped. It seems to me that Keiths reputaion is strong enough to survive a hit like this.

I have an.....aquaintence that seems to have trouble everywhere he goes and with everything he purchases. When he complains about an item or a service I just assume he is once again wrong. It is a matter of considereing the source.. Anyone who hears this story and knows the facts will understand.

[bryce]

Robert, What is the humidity level in your home, specifically the room where your mandolin hung?
I had a man I did some repairs for on a flattop guitar. He thought the humidity in his home was fine during the winter. When more cracks appeared, he gave in and bought a hygrometer(sp). Turns out it was 18%. It works both ways.
I don't know if you know what it was in your home, but it is critical. If the closet was causing mold, the rest would seem suspicious.
Southern US can be very humid, and we're going to take our instruments outdoors. But they should return to a controled environment if possible.
And when a brace becomes loose, string tension should be dropped then.
I'm not trying to fuss or be a know it all, just passing on information I've learned over time doing repairs on instruments that the owners thought they were taking good care of, but weren't.
Hope all turns out fair and right for both parties.

[Rvl]

Robert, What is the humidity level in your home, specifically the room where your mandolin hung?
And when a brace becomes loose, string tension should be dropped then.

today is 75% and it's raining
the window is always kept open a little to allow a draft,unfortunately no windows in the closet but the door is left open a crack
after the brace became loose , tension was lowered and a photo was taken and an email was sent
there are 3 dehumidifiers in the house

Thanks

Robert VanLane

[Philphool]

Did we ever determine if an ozone treatment (they do this in a machine with hockey equipment) at a hockey rink could kill the mildew? There was some discussion about this. There was a rash of Martin warranty work after the Nashville floods as well.

I followed that thread closely. It's pretty certain that the PROPER ozone treatement will kill mildew AND SPORES. (This is likely to be a level much higher than skate rink methods.) What has not been determined is whether that level of ozone will damage the instrument. I'd think that all the hardware would have to be removed to use the appropriate ozone levels, but no one seems to have tried those levels with ANY musical instruments to see whether there would be damage to finish or structure.

I'd love to see a test on a relatively inexpensive instrument exposed to HIGH LEVEL OZONE to see what happens.

[Pete Summers]

today is 75% and it's raining
the window is always kept open a little to allow a draft,unfortunately no windows in the closet but the door is left open a crack
after the brace became loose , tension was lowered and a photo was taken and an email was sent
there are 3 dehumidifiers in the house

Thanks

Robert VanLane

Well, after reading this I have to revise my opinion (not that anybody really cares). Doesn't sound like there was any abuse or misuse here. I'm not sure what the cause of the problem was, especially the mold. I live in Missouri where summertime 75% humidity is considered an arid day , and with 3 dehumidifiers in the house I can't see why excess humidity should be a problem, or what more the owner could do.

Sounds to me like the owner did everything you could expect an owner to do, so I hope he and the builder can work out an equitable arrangement.

An in the future, I shall leave off my opinions until both sides have had a say. Thanks.

[Tavy]

Well, after reading this I have to revise my opinion (not that anybody really cares). Doesn't sound like there was any abuse or misuse here. I'm not sure what the cause of the problem was, especially the mold. I live in Missouri where summertime 75% humidity is considered an arid day , and with 3 dehumidifiers in the house I can't see why excess humidity should be a problem, or what more the owner could do.

Sounds to me like the owner did everything you could expect an owner to do, so I hope he and the builder can work out an equitable arrangement.

An in the future, I shall leave off my opinions until both sides have had a say. Thanks.

I guess the next question would be - "how long was it in transit and under what conditions"?

[Bill Snyder]

RVL in the photo you posted this mandolin appears to already be covered in mildew. Is it the Newell? If not how many of your other instruments have had mildew problems?

[mandomedic]

RVL in the photo you posted this mandolin appears to already be covered in mildew. Is it the Newell? If not how many of your other instruments have had mildew problems?

No, that's not the NEWELL. Keith's is the on the far left... Now that is some serious mildew on the one with the pickup.