Mildew

[Keith Newell]

I have recieved back my first mandolin ever with a popped brace (X) and the owner has left it strung up under tension causing the top to get quite a wow/bend in it. They left it strung up for several months. I recieved the mandolin back and had to bag it in a sealed bag because the mildew smell stunk up my whole shop to the point I couldn't stand it.
OK, we are talking warrenty here, first ever for this which I use hide glue....looks like it got very hot and very humid. I'm very upset about this and feel my fix would be just building a whole mandolin but who would let their instrument be in an enviroment that had so much heat and humidity? I'm of a mind to tell them my mind but they could say just about anything and make me look bad.
Fix it and eat the major labor? Confront them? Ignore it and send it back?
Keith

[Bertram Henze]

Warranties come with conditions, and ill-treating the item in question typically voids a warranty. However, this works by stating the conditions in advance, so better luck next time...
I'd swallow the words and do the major labor this time just to get these people off my back who callously let my work rot away, but clearly state that there will be not another round of this game.

[Keith Newell]

Care of the instrument was stated and there won't be another round. If you buy the car and don't change the oil for 30k and something fails because of the enviroment it's living in then the care and enviroment need to be looked at. If stated that a certain gauge of strings are the max an instrument takes and the owner chooses to try something with more tension then buyer is on their own.
It's just if you buy something and abuse it you can go back to the manufacturer but don't expect them to agree with the life you have given their creation.
I'm still thinking on it.

[Keith Newell]

On second thought there is no swallowing my words, use your axe, chainsaw, knife, saw, gun, instrument, or whatever in anything not made for it like dirt, rock, nails (in wood), mud, or extreme heat and humidity then the result is on the controlling interests books.
77 mandolins everywhere from Australia to Alaska and never a glue starved joint, first one ever comes back from Japan and stinks worst than any of your nightmares..........makes you look what, where, who and conditions
Look for the new Newell Carbon Fiber mandolin this fall.

[sunburst]

I know that CF Martin will not do warranty work on an instrument that has been abused, and if a Martin authorized warranty center says the instrument shows signs of being overheated, dropped, kept too dry or too wet, or whatever, Martin will take the word of the repair tech and refuse warranty work.
We can't warranty against poor treatment, nor can we build to withstand poor treatment.
My $.02; inform them that the instrument has been poorly treated, explain why wood, glue, finish etc.. cannot be subjected to that type of treatment, make them understand that the failure is not your fault, and then they can decide whether to pay for repairs or not, but you don't need to fix it for free.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I agree with John Hamlett. Warranty should ( & usually does) cover defective materials & poor workmanship.It shouldn't cover repairs to instruments that have obviously suffered abuse & neglect. Personally,i'd be asking for payment for this repair as it's been caused by ill treatment of the instrument,& i wouldn't be feeling bad about it either. For me,it's a bit like crashing your car & asking for the repair to be carried out under warranty - Oh yeah !!!!!,
Ivan

[Tavy]

Keith, no opinion, just a question: to what extent is the issue within the owners control? For example do they live in or have they traveled to parts of the world where temperature and humidity make this sort of inevitable. Of course being in the wrong part of the world at the wrong time could be considered abuse.... but you know... just asking.

[jake-mando]

I own a business that sells off road Atv's. Unfortunatly due to most of the conditions that these machines are used in they are abusive situations. Most times people know they did something wrong, and when politely confronted most will admit to being in the wrong. Since bad news travels fast then good, alot times I will explain the problem and offer split the cost with them. In my case I cover the labour and they cover the parts. This might be an option for you. Both parties usually go away happy, and you both win.

[the padma]

Received back form Japan eh....how long in shipping? If packaged when the humidity was up, it is possible for mold to grow in a very short time... some tone wood suppliers refuse to ship by boat cuz the wood sometimes arrives all moldy. Something to think about eh.


blessings
duh Padma

[Keith Newell]

I live in a very wet climate...Northwest Oregon. If I have never seen an instrument that is in such bad shape based on dampness then it must be epic in my opinion. Like I said I can't even open the sealed plastic bag in my shop, I can even still get a faint odor at times. More importantly most of you if you had your instrument suddenly change tuning would look at decreasing the tension immediatly. Leaving it strung up for so long under warm wet conditions almost seals the fate of your instrument. Tavys suggestion works in a garage but in this situation there really aren't any "parts" just labor involved...lots of it.
Thanks John for the comments, as usual your perspective is down to earth and appreciated.
Padma, the instrument was only in shipping for a few days. I can't really give you a sense of how bad it is but even inside the insrument it is darker than normal. This has been abused and I don't know anybody who would keep something that by nature is as fragile as an instrument in such an enviroment.
Keith

[Jim Garber]

So, the brace popped (somehow, maybe humidity or high heat or whatever) but then the owner left it somewhere as-is for months under tension and waited for that long time before contacting you? IMHO the initial problem might or might not have been the owner's fault but I would definitely say that the 2nd phase was pure negligence as evidenced by the condition of the top, the mildew etc.

One other possibility is to speak to the owner and work out an equitable arrangement -- that maybe you split the cost (based on your hourly rate) for the repair if he truly wants a working instrument. I think that would only be fair to you, but the main reason you might want to do it at all is for good will.

Actually, here is a hypothetical... say you do all this work for whatever and then a year later this guy contacts you to commission a 2nd instrument... I think I know what I would do.

[sunburst]

For anyone who doesn't understand this, hide glue can be solid and reliable for centuries in a well cared for instrument. Removing a fingerboard from a well cared for 100 year old Gibson mandolin it a challenge not for the faint of heart!
Overly moist conditions and mold/mildew can be the "kiss of death" for hide glue, which is essentially gelatine, very similar to some food products. The brace pop may have been unrelated to the wet storage and poor treatment, but at this point all the glue joints in the instrument are suspect and may be subject to later failure because of degradation from the fungus. No one can, or should have to warranty against that. It is not the builder's fault. Instruments must be well cared for to remain in good condition.

[Steve L]

I can't help wondering if this thing got caught up in the tsunami.

[sunburst]

...And one more thing.
Defects in workmanship resulting in damage of failure should be warranty situations. Damage or failure caused by tsunamis, hurricanes, vandalism, etc.; those are what insurance is for. Poor treatment; that is the responsibility of the owner.

[Pete Summers]

Keith, I'm not a builder but I am a buyer. I don't think it's reasonable for the owner to have subjected this mandolin to those kind of conditions and then blithely demand it be repaired at no cost. I would never expect a builder/dealer to repair it free under those conditions, and I don't think any reasonable owner would. So,

I would contact them, explain that the warranty does not cover abuse and politely suggest you will fix it if they are willing to pay, or perhaps suggest they purchase a new instrument (with a slight discount maybe, just to mitigate their blow back).

Who knows, maybe they will be reasonable and agree to that. But even if they don't, just how much damage to your business can one disgruntled owner in Japan do anyway? I'd say to hell with 'em, frankly. The customer may always be right, but not when they demand hundreds of dollars of free labor for something that was their own fault (or an act of God in the case of a tsunami) and clearly not covered under any reasonable warranty.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Willie]

I would talk to the owner and see if he had any insurance that would cover the repairs, if not I would ship it back to him... as someone else said, one dis satisfied customer shouldn`t hurt your business too much...

Willie

[sunburst]

It's nearly inevitable that we all, as builders, eventually get some "bad press", deserved or not. In most cases that I've seen, it's has been undeserved or at least out of proportion (with notable exceptions, of coarse). Anyone who is the least bit dissatisfied for any reason, real or not, be it unrealistic expectations, poor conception of reality, some perceived slight, or a legitimate gripe can go public with the click of a "send button" these days. Once "sent", it's there forever. The higher the profile, the longer the career, the more likely something will happen and someone will decide to take a jab at our reputation in public. Just as we can't build for or warranty to cover poor treatment of our instruments, we can't encase our reputations in armor. We can't appease every customer to avoid them "going public" with or without good reason. It's sort of like the negative vs positive "feedback" that certain on-line reputations depend. Hopefully, the good will outweigh the bad on our "resume", and people will understand that things happen, misunderstandings exist, miscommunication is frequent, and if they read something about us that seems bad, there is no built-in filter to separate the deserved from the undeserved in the on-line and public sphere.
Fixing something for free simply to keep someone from "going public" just seems like a case of the customer using the threat of damaging our reputation to put us "over a barrel" and extort free repairs. I think we need to stand up for our rights as business people and take our chances, just as we take our chances every time we send an instrument out into the world and subject it to whatever treatment it may receive from it's owner, of any subsequent owners.

[dcoventry]

Keith,

Your reputation and history speaks for itself. If someone is interested in one your instruments, this incident will be but a minor blip.

I think what is bothering you is the abuse to one of your "children", and then the possible tarnish on a great repuation. Don't sweat it overly. Do what you honestly think is FAIR....to all parties. The buyer may or may not like your answer, but if you have a FAIR and defensible stance, your conscience will not suffer.

FYI, there was a guy who tried to drag Gail Hester through the mud something fierce. That was just a weird scene, to be sure. But, it seems to have not hurt her business.

Dave

[Rick Lindstrom]

I completely agree with what most folks are saying. Contact the customer and tell them that the failure is due to improper climate control in storage and that it's not covered under warranty. Then forget about it.

If these people aren't already aware that they messed up, they're not people you want for customers. No one will fault you for a decision like that.

What are they going to do anyway- take you to small claims court in Japan?

Rick

[Keith Newell]

I like my instruments and want every one of them to outlive me. My dad was a gunsmith and in the book for Speer bullets, my mom was third in the nation NRA small bore rifle and a certified instructor, my grandparents were Idaho state champs in Trap and skeet for many years. I don't want a bad rep I don't want a customer to be left hanging but really dont want to bend over for someone that does not have commen sense on a hobby or lifestyle that that their item is treated second rate.
Thanks all, this thread solidified what I was thinking. Spend your web minutes on something enjoyable.
Keith

[Mandobart]

I'm certainly not asking for names, but I've gotta think who can possibly spend the $$ on a Newell mandolin and then treat it so poorly? As my depression-era parents used to say, someone with more money than sense. Have you had a chance to talk with the customer and ask wtf? (in a nice business-like way, of course).

[bmac]

I think you would be wise to eat the cost of repair.... The last thing you, or any builder, needs is a dissatisfied customer complaining about you for the rest of his life. Or you could complain about him for the rest of your life.... but what's the point? The axium "The customer is always right." applies in this case. And if he asks you to build another. you can always get realy realy busy. Perhaps you should give customers a printed set of instructions on care and upkeep.... and procedure for dealing with a broken or collapsing instrument under warrenty. If it is printed and the customer has a copy then you will be in a better position when something like this happens.

[Steve L]

I brought up the tsunami because Keith's description of the instrument sounds so much like stories we heard about musician's instruments in the aftermath of Katrina. It's possible this thing was in terrible circumstances beyond the owners control and was recovered. There may have been no actual negligence but tsunamis are, for lack of a better phrase, an "act of God" and no one can't be expected to build God-proof mandolins.

[Ward Elliott]

I think you have every right to refuse to repair it under warranty. It has obviously been abused, and even if some of the damage happened during transit, as Padma suggested, that's beyond your control. I would be diplomatic, but firm, and refuse to fix it for free.


Ward

[Mike Snyder]

If I were your customer I would hope that you would at least attempt to get ahold of me to discuss options in a civil manner. Things might go south from there, but we'd have a chance of knowing the whole story and reaching an agreeable solution.

Not suggesting that you would be anything less than civil.