Vintage Instrument Serial #s and Confidentially

[Ed Goist]

I am the very happy new owner of a 1937 Gretsch tenor guitar.

Now that the instrument is in my possession, I thought I would add it to 'The Gretsch Pages' instrument database, both as a record of my ownership, and to help expand the instrument database of that site. You can see the registry entry for my tenor guitar here.

During the registration process, I was asked whether or not I wanted to keep the serial number of the instrument confidential. I chose not to, thinking that having the serial number posted in the entry would be a form of certification that I owned that instrument. (Clearly, I know this wouldn't be legal proof of ownership, but it does seem like a nice public confirmation that the instrument is mine).

Anyways, I'm wondering why anyone would not want the serial number of an instrument they own made public. I can't think of a downside. Thanks.

[F-2 Dave]

Really cool looking old tenor Ed. Wouldn't it be nice to know where it's been and what it's done for the last 70+ years?

[Ed Goist]

Thanks very much Dave.
I Know...She's definitely an old warhorse...I really look forward to getting to know her, and hearing the stories she has to tell.

[Bill Clements]

Congrats, Ed! Enjoy your new friend and the music you'll make together!

[Jim Garber]

Anyways, I'm wondering why anyone would not want the serial number of an instrument they own made public. I can't think of a downside. Thanks.

For one, people do steal instruments and resell them. If you buy it from someone who knowingly or not resold it from someone who stole it originally and the last legitimate owner filed a police report or posted on a site like this one, you may have to give up your treasure and might not get your money back.

I don't know if this is still the case but years ago I sold some guitars to a store in NYC and they asked me for all sorts of ID and wrote it all down. There may even have been some sort of form.

[Ed Goist]

Good point Jim, I can see that risk. However, that risk is also a benefit for a legitimate previous owner, so I'm good with that.
The up side, of course, is that my public acknowledgement of ownership now establishes my legitimate claim to the instrument from this point forward (should it be stolen from me).

[Jim Garber]

The up side, of course, is that my public acknowledgement of ownership now establishes my legitimate claim to the instrument from this point forward (should it be stolen from me).

Then again, would that hold up in any court of law? I can say that I have a 1924 F5 SN[whatever goes here] but that does not mean I actually own it. I can get the serial number from the Mandolin Archive or else get it from another eBay listing. Most people at least when selling would put SN#74XXX to confirm the date to people who care about those things.

I don't mean to be a PITA about this but there are reasons not to list that number.

[Ed Goist]

No PITA factor at all Jim, this is a good discussion, and exactly what I was hoping for when I posed the question.

I've talked to my insurance rep and my attorney about protecting our household instruments, and the general opinion from both was to have as much supporting documentation and evidence of ownership as possible (registration on archive sites, photos, a regularly updated detailed [and even notarized] inventory of instruments, etc.).

I think it's kinda like none of these things (in and of themselves) proves ownership, be a preponderance of things makes it very likely that any ruling authority would be convinced of one's ownership by the evidence.

Though I still believe that listing the serial # of a vintage instrument on a public registry is more beneficial than harmful, I don't believe it firmly enough to say with certainty that I'd do so with an instrument appraised in say the $3K+ category.

[journeybear]

I think the opposing viewpoints expressed in posts 5 & 6 are at the heart of the matter - whose instrument is it. Does a registry of this sort serve to establish a current owner as the true owner of the instrument? Does this risk alerting a previous owner of a stolen instrument to is whereabouts, resulting in the loss of that instrument, without recompense? I would like to think the odds are in the favor of the current owner. I also think the point Ed made concerning a preponderance of evidence would have a good deal of weight in case this did turn out to be stolen. (This seems similar to the burden of proof in civil cases versus criminal, which is less demanding but held to be valid.) But I think most of the time there would be nothing untoward concerning ownership, and a registry such as this would be a valuable source of information for anyone doing research about these instruments, the company, and related matters.

It would be nice if information about stolen instruments were available to the general public in some sort of data base, so someone thinking about buying an instrument could do due diligence and determine whether it had been stolen, before buying, and indeed alert police about the situation. I'm not sure how much of this information is available even to law enforcement agencies. When my f-12 was stolen coming up to five years ago, I found the serial number on file at my luthier's and had it added to the police report - but nothing has come of it. I have no idea whether this was reported to any statewide agency or even to local pawn shops as promised. I would think it unlikely that anyone will notice a serial number provided to a registry like this and recognize it as belonging to a stolen instrument other than the former owner, and the likelihood of that happening would be slim indeed. I also believe providing information about your instrument is unlikely to lead to its theft from you. But just to be sure, omit any personal information that could lead to informing strangers of its whereabouts. It does look like the entry is quite anonymous, so you should be able to rest easy. I think more good than harm will come from participating in this project.

[Dobe]

Do I smell a Cello neck being built ?

[G7MOF]

If you were to show pictures of the instrument and the serial number who's to saysomeone who has never owned it could not now say he did and it had been stolen. After all he/she now has all the details!

[Ed Goist]

If you were to show pictures of the instrument and the serial number who's to saysomeone who has never owned it could not now say he did and it had been stolen. After all he/she now has all the details!

Yes, but now everyone has the details, so I believe in a civil action he or she would need to show compelling proof of ownership (receipt, insurance statement, etc.) at some point in the past.

So, I'd say making the serial number public actually makes knowledge of the serial number basically irrelevant as a way to show past ownership of the instrument (after all, everyone has access to that number now).

[barney 59]

If you were to show pictures of the instrument and the serial number who's to saysomeone who has never owned it could not now say he did and it had been stolen. After all he/she now has all the details!

Exactly!----I have registered instruments with my homeowners insurance, no one ever stopped by for proof. With that said registering your instruments with an insurance company would probably be your best bet for proof of ownership. One thing for sure, there is always someone testing the fences for the next scam and if there is a hole somewhere they will find it and exploit the situation. Case in point ----new teen craze----using the internet locate empty houses (mansions are best) and throw a rave party- being sure to do a fair amount of vandalism and maybe some major theft along the way......

[Jim Garber]

My homeowner's insurance requires either a purchase receipt less than 6 months old or else a written appraisal before listing it on a rider. This covers items stolen outside of my house. Otherwise, they don't ask for any list of what is in the house that is not on the rider.

I agree that listing it on the rider might be more proof-worthy since you have to pay a fee for doing so.