Bluegrass Vocals

[drbluegrass]

I have a very basic question regarding the quick ascending and descending triplets many top BG vocalists like Ricky Skaggs, Rhonda Vincent, Don Rigsby, Jamie Daily, Darren Vincent, Alison Krauss, and others perform. Can these quick vocal triplets be learned or are they something that you can simply either do or not do? I can occasionally perform them if the song is in the right key. But sometimes I do them more with my diaphragm vs my vocal chords. I think most people that do them well do them with their vocal chords. Anyway, I was just curious if a person can be taught to do quick vocal triplets or if it's something you're just innately able to do and no amount of practicing will work? Thank you.


Tom

[tree]

Here is 2 cents from a mediocre singer: I believe that there are born singers and born no-singers and every possible degree of variation in between. Having said that, I'm sure practice will improve your vocal capabilities no matter your vocal gift.

I have a pretty good ear and can pick out 'most any melody or harmony on mandolin or guitar. But I have always struggled with my pitch when singing. I work at it (I sing an hour just about every working day on my commute and I've sung in the choir since I was in high school), and I have improved, but I doubt if I'll ever put in the work it would take to turn me into more than just an occasional lead singer. Harmonies aren't a problem, but if it's just me singing lead, I'm often a little pitchy, depending on the song.

Drives me crazy.

I believe the quick ascending or descending triplets you refer to may be called "melismas". It's a form of vocal ornamentation or interpretation. Depends on the song whether I can do them or not. If I can, they seem to come easy. If not, I don't know whether I'd have the patience to practice long enough to make them work for me.

[Pipeous]

singing is a muscle. you have to learn to play mandolin, and you have to learn to sing. practicing proper techniques is important no matter what instrument

[joni24]

Just curious, could you give a Youtube or other example of someone singing the triplets? I think I know what you're talking about, but not 100% sure.

[RB250]

Checkout Murphy Henry / Murphy Method's new Bluegrass Harmony DVD. As usual, a Murphy Method great instruction DVD. Murphy assembles a great mix of artists to teach lead, tenor, baratone and base parts for bluegrass and gospel.

RB250

[mandopete]

I too suffer from pitch problems when singing. From all of the instruction and advice I have seen this is mostly due to poor breathing technique.

[Michael H Geimer]

I gained quite noticeable improvements in my pitch and control after spending some quality time as a harmony singer. The requirement to match another singers phrasing forced me to approach my breathing and placement in ways that were outside my normal comfort zone.

[allenhopkins]

[QUOTE=mandopete;1059957]I too suffer from pitch problems when singing./QUOTE]

I don't suffer. My audience does.

My problem often is insufficient breath to sustain pitch through to the end of a held note. I approach this issue by (a) trying to "think ahead" to ascertain when I'll need to hold a note, and getting in a short "catch breath" somewhere mid-phrase ahead of time, and (b) clipping off some of the long notes, which can be a "phrasing style," but in my case is mainly an expedient to avoid having my voice trail flat, as my breath runs out.

[Justus True Waldron]

I'm pretty sure Tree is correct and what you are thinking of is Melisma. To me there are song that seem to naturally have a place for it, and others where I have to think a little bit if I want to throw some in. I've been working on my singing a lot over the past couple months. I've grown up singing harmony (I remember starting to do it at the age of 5 or 6 and driving my parents crazy! But I got it figured out pretty soon after that), but I've started singing lead lately. My vocals had the common issues of being thinner and slightly pitchy on held out notes... and I've always tried to force myself to sing in a higher range than I should be I think (I sing tenor, but am used to high harmonies... singing lead you all of a sudden can't hide the imperfections from singing too high!)

Anyways, I've learned quite a few things that have helped me in the past couple months, mostly from singing in my car on my hour drive to work... One is to really push with the diaphram - something I can do naturally from playing clarinet, but for some reason would forget when singing. Secondly, singing with an open throat - this is a little more tricky for me, and I'd like to take a lesson sometime and make sure I'd doing it right. However, I can imagine an O shape in my throat when singing, and I get this funny buzz in my throat and all of a sudden my vocals are full and solid and no longer sound strained. Finally, I've learned to just call songs in the key that works for me, as it's going to be better overall anyways, and I play with good enough musicians that nobody really minds. Luckily for me, a lot of the classic "mashable" bluegrass tunes I know fall in B for me anyways... so people tend to like it.

Once I started being able to fit all these things together, my vocals suddenly felt much stronger. Now I can start to throw in all the "ornaments" that you hear other bluegrassers do, and it just feels natural. I also have MUCH more volume and control than I used to, which helps a lot with the fancy bits. Like someone else said, vocal chords are a muscle, and once I started practising the results were really noticeable. The only other thing I know about melisma is to be careful where you use it - when singing 4 part harmony the closer your backup can follow you the better! Often times unless it's planned, this means simpler is better. Singing with siblings can simplify this, because they tend to know what you're going to do. When I sing with my sisters it's really tight without trying...

[drbluegrass]

I have a very good ear for harmony and can pick out any harmony part and sing it on pitch. I also have very good pitch over all. No problem with that. I was just wondering if singing melismas (rapid ascending or descending tripletts, quadruplets, etc.) can be learned to a certain extent or if you pretty much have the ability to sing them or not?


Tom

[farmerjones]

You mentioned Vincent & Daily. I'll mention the tune, By the Mark. I believe there is a large example of this "stepping" in that tune. I sing harmony all the time with my group. My approach initially would not be to do this naturally. But if there were room for it, i might try it to keep the passage interesting. I think it could get over used as well. I'm more apt to use the Soulfull bend, to accent a phrase.


As a young boy in the Woodstock era (1st Woodstock), after hearing Joe Cocker, i just figured anybody could sing if they wanted, so i did, and still do.

[tree]

I have a very good ear for harmony and can pick out any harmony part and sing it on pitch. I also have very good pitch over all. No problem with that. I was just wondering if singing melismas (rapid ascending or descending tripletts, quadruplets, etc.) can be learned to a certain extent or if you pretty much have the ability to sing them or not?


Tom

I think just about any skill can be learned. Your particular gift (or lack thereof, in my case) may make a difference in how much work (practice) is required to attain the level you wish to attain. Your particular motivation (drive) definitely makes a difference in whether you put in the work or not.

Having said all that, I still believe that some melismas come easier than others.

[BradKlein]

I'm pretty sure that I know what the original poster is referring to. And it is something that anyone can improve on, simply by carefully breaking down the vocal part, and singing it slowly and exaggerating the 'distinctness' of those 'grace notes' until you can do it faster. And example: Del McCoury singing, 'Bluest Man in Town'. It's a mid tempo number with triple and double grace notes at the end of most lines.

You went -- a way-ay-ay
To leave me he-ere
And find, somebo-uh-uh-dy ne-ew-ew.

PS I don't say that it's easy. But anyone who can sing can improve this way, and over articulating these grace notes doesn't really sound bad. It's usually better than leaving them out.

[Duff]

Is this what we are talking about melismas and runs?

[BradKlein]

Here's the technique in the bluegrass context that I think the original poster was referring to. And of course the Vincent & Daily version of Gillian Welch's, By the Mark (mentioned above) is another good example.

Have you ever taken a classic BG song and memorized every slur and grace note? I never did until I started taking lessons. A pro's technique: Choose one of the great lead singers: Carter Stanley, Del McCoury, Jimmy Martin, Lester Flatt. Learn one phrase at a time and don't move forward till you've mastered that phrase. Go a step farther and print the lyric and write out each note, grace note, slur - it can be in standard notation or by scale degree, 1, 2, b3, 3, etc.

I'm sure it's easy as pie for many talented vocalists, but for me it's a long commitment of time and practice to LEARN a song. I'll never be a great singer, but I've come a long way - and it's helped every other aspect of my musical life.

[Marty Henrickson]

Brad, taking this technique a step further and actually playing a melody the way a great singer sings it (on the instrument of your own preference) can be a great exercise, as well.

[BradKlein]

Brad, taking this technique a step further and actually playing a melody the way a great singer sings it (on the instrument of your own preference) can be a great exercise, as well.

Agreed, Marty. I may have forgotten that step since I can't begin to write out the part WITHOUT referring to a guitar, mandolin, or keyboard - so I take it for granted. Someday I may be able to note out simple melodies by ear alone. Progress is slow, but detectable!

Plus, many of the grace notes and slides that make vocals interesting, are important in BG instrumental work as well.

[Marty Henrickson]

Agreed, Marty. I may have forgotten that step since I can't begin to write out the part WITHOUT referring to a guitar, mandolin, or keyboard - so I take it for granted. Someday I may be able to note out simple melodies by ear alone. Progress is slow, but detectable!

Plus, many of the grace notes and slides that make vocals interesting, are important in BG instrumental work as well.

Yes, the instrumental aspect is what I meant, my post wasn't really clear about that, and I certainly couldn't notate them without an instrument in hand, either.

[drbluegrass]

Is this what we are talking about melismas and runs?

Yes!! Exactly what I'm talking about but in a bluegrass context. Is this something you can train yourself to do or is it something you're born with?


Tom

[tree]

It's not really an either/or thing. You can train yourself to do almost anything, if you're willing to put in the time. Different individuals have different gifts, also, so some things come easier for some individuals than others.

[Duff]

Yes!! Exactly what I'm talking about but in a bluegrass context. Is this something you can train yourself to do or is it something you're born with?


Tom

Rather than just doing scales with individual notes try making a decending or ascending sound....think siren or cat meow.

hope that helps

[drbluegrass]

But, Duff, they are singing discrete notes in short phrases and in a rapid ascending or descending (scalar) fashion. I've been able to train my voice to do it with some phrases but not everywhere I'd like and without the fluidity and ease that some are capable of. I'll keep practicing though. I think a lot of bluegrass artists that are so good at it started singing BG as very young children and have had many years of practice and performing. I've been playing and singing BG for less than 3 years so I have a considerable amount of ground to make up. Since I've been playing guitar for 5+ decades (and now mandolin) my BG flat picking is way ahead of my singing. I think I just need to keep practicing.


Tom

[tree]

One thing that might help with more difficult vocal phrases is to experiment with higher or lower keys for the song. Even the best singers have keys for specific songs that are best suited to their own voices. One of the things I love about bluegrass is that the singer determines the key. That's why guitar and banjo players have capoes.

Even so, there are certain phrases that are just too difficult for me in any key, and there probably isn't enough time left in my life to woodshed them to perfection (a judgement call, yes).

Faced with that, the best I can do is to adopt the "broad brush" approach that Bill Monroe utilized so brilliantly in his mandolin playing in his later years: go for the most important notes, changing it just enough so I can (hopefully) get it while retaining the spirit of the phrase as much as possible. Ol' Bill was a genius at that.

[drbluegrass]

One thing that might help with more difficult vocal phrases is to experiment with higher or lower keys for the song. Even the best singers have keys for specific songs that are best suited to their own voices. One of the things I love about bluegrass is that the singer determines the key. That's why guitar and banjo players have capoes.

Even so, there are certain phrases that are just too difficult for me in any key, and there probably isn't enough time left in my life to woodshed them to perfection (a judgement call, yes).

Faced with that, the best I can do is to adopt the "broad brush" approach that Bill Monroe utilized so brilliantly in his mandolin playing in his later years: go for the most important notes, changing it just enough so I can (hopefully) get it while retaining the spirit of the phrase as much as possible. Ol' Bill was a genius at that.

Very well said, Clark.


Tom