A question for the performing musicians

[journeybear]

Gee, Allen, I guess if someone meets all those criteria, then it might be all right. But I don't see the point in jumping through all those hoops, if you are not part of the performance, unless you are just bursting with a desire to play and wow some people - which doesn't jibe with the scenario of playing quietly off to the side where you won't disturb anyone. I stilll don't see where the OP explained his motivation for wanting to do this, anyway, so we have been forced to guess, and as to assumptions ...

I think it's interesting the assumptions we make about people. "Not in a band." "Not a performer." Etc. I have been guilty of jumping to conclusions on many occassions, but I guess it's most obvious when people do it about you.

Well, you could clear it up with just a few words. Curious why you haven't.

[foldedpath]

I think the OP's initial question is a bit more nuanced and complex than one could tell from some of the, excuse the expression, "knee-jerk" answers.

I'm adding to the pile-on with Journeybear here, and saying that it's really not that nuanced or complex.

Call this a knee-jerk reaction if you want, but to me it's just common sense and courtesy. There are a thousand ways to promote acoustic music and play with other musicians, without crossing this particular line.

The way we all feel about this will naturally depend on past experience, and it does matter which side of the stage you're on. I think many of us here have had enough history of drunks wading up to the mic and trying to sing Danny Boy, or "help" your band play Blues with their harmonica, to be somewhat sensitized to the issue. If you haven't dealt with that kind of thing for years, then you might think it's a more "nuanced" situation.

[Dobes2TBK]

This is good, in a discussion format - helps to define the boundaries of what's good manners - depending on the scenario. And it helped define just what those scenarios are. I was a rank novice coming in, a few years ago, wasn't always sure when audience participation (singing along, clapping, etc) was acceptable, or to what level.

One level I'm still not certain of. Round robin jam setting, maybe 20-ish people, a party pulls out one of their ... "signature" .. tunes. Do you play along with, back up/accompany, or leave be and play "audience"?

Connie

[Eddie Sheehy]

Round Robin Jam - Jam is the important word here. Join in if you can - even a boom-chuck is jamming... bones, bodhran, and six guitars-a-strumming might want to provide a background hum... Common sense should prevail, the 'starter' should start and stop the tune (usually by providing 'potatoes', a beat, the tempo, and raising a leg when he's on the last part. In my opinion, the more people that tunefully join in your choice, the more it adds to your enjoyment - even people who choose an unknown tune in a jam are doing it to share their enjoyment of the tune, not to show it off.

BUT, the idea of someone sitting to the side and playing or noodling while a performer is performing... I can't see that as being appropriate in any circumstance...

As Christy Moore says when the clapping-along get's 'out-of-hand: "It took me years to get up on this stage and I'm not sharing it..." though I think he could have said it a bit more diplomatically...

[journeybear]

Not crazy about the "piling on" term - implies bullying, and everyone has been pretty civil - but the overwhelming majority of opinion is pretty clear. And the OP did concede the point some time ago, so ... Well, he did stir the pot again, so I think that's why we're here again.

Anyway, yes, Connie, rules are very different for a jam. People are expected to bring an instrument and participate by playing, hopefully in a cooperative, considerate, courteous manner. Performance settings - well, no. The only people expected to bring instruments are the performers. There are rules concerning jam etiquette, easy enough to find, and some jams have them posted (various versions abound on the interweb, some have been offered hereabouts), but they're straightforward and follow common sense.

That said, if by "signature tune," you mean one that is not well known by the rest of the participants, or serves as a time for him/her to show off - that strikes me as a breach of etiquette, unless the person introduces it in some way that indicates some sort of sharing, something like that. If someone knows the tune and tries to play along, that should be fine; if the player indicates none is wanted, probably best not to press the issue, just let it take its course. It'll be over in a few minutes. One of those above-mentioned rules concerns the tune-calling passing around the circle, and if that is what someone wants to do on his/her turn, well, so be it, if no one else minds too much. Then it's on to the next person, and so on, and hopefully it won't be that person's turn again for a while. And maybe in the meantime one of the elder statesmen might instruct the miscreant in manners.

[OldSausage]

Well, look, if people pull out a real jam buster it's usually either because they are inexperienced, or because they are, how shall I put it, a looney. If they're inexperienced then just do your best and maybe afterwards suggest that they try to learn a few more well-known or 3 chord songs to help the jammers. If they are a looney, they will bring out the same jam buster at every jam they go to, and you shouldn't try to say anything to them, in case they are also a dangerous looney. Just do your best to avoid them.

[foldedpath]

Not crazy about the "piling on" term - implies bullying, and everyone has been pretty civil - but the overwhelming majority of opinion is pretty clear.

I was writing in a hurry there (short breaks between fixing dinner), and I take that back. Should have said "agreeing with."

The "knee jerk" adjective in Allen's post set me off, at a weak moment.

[journeybear]

So it was a knee jerk reaction to the "knee jerk"phrase? I can dig it. No worries, just trying to keep things clear. This is a rather fuzzy thread.

[foldedpath]

So it was a knee jerk reaction to the "knee jerk"phrase? I can dig it. No worries, just trying to keep things clear. This is a rather fuzzy thread.

It's about to get fuzzier, if it morphs into a thread about jam etiquette.

Until someone starts a new thread along those lines, I'll just toss in this, to stir the pot...

I've attended high-end Irish and Scottish sessions ("jams", not paid performances) where it was understood that the session leader, and/or his or her friends, would play a few "party tunes" that nobody in the rest of the group could play, because it was just brilliant music. Something you'd want to lay down your instrument for, and listen to. Because it's great music.

I've also attended jams and sessions that were ruined by high-end players who were teachers and brought their students to the "jam," forcing the rest of the group to sit on their hands while they played their party pieces.

So there's a big range here, in what works and what doesn't work in a jam/session scene. If your're playing too many party pieces, or the jam is being dominated by someone else playing personal party tunes that nobody else can join in on, then something is wrong. We're getting into jam/session culture here, and there's a limit to how well any of this can be discussed as a generic topic on the 'Net. It's about your local jam culture.

[greg_tsam]

How about the jam where the whole band shows up and tries to take over?

[greg_tsam]

...or leave be and play "audience"?

Connie

This is called getting up and getting a drink or taking a smoke break. Not too many in the "audience" at a jam and those that remain usually have a sour face on.

[foldedpath]

How about the jam where the whole band shows up and tries to take over?

Or, how about a jam where the leader and a group of alpha players perform as an outside band, as well as leading the session. Any "casual players' who show up and who aren't in the inner circle, are basically providing backup for a band rehearsal.

Yep, seen that one too.

There are many variations on this theme. The best answer if you're not a performer and you're not looking to form a band, is just to find the people who you get along with, for making great music together. Keep it casual, but establish whatever limits you need for your particular group, to keep the music the way you want it.

And if you run across someone else performing music in a more formal context, then give them room to work their act.

[lenf12]

I'm starting my farmers' market season next week,

Sounds like late winter has finally arrived in upstate NY.....

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[allenhopkins]

Gee, Allen, I guess if someone meets all those criteria, then it might be all right. But I don't see the point in jumping through all those hoops, if you are not part of the performance, unless you are just bursting with a desire to play and wow some people...

We don't get up on stage unless we like to play. Maybe my experience is atypical, but I have been in many situations where "sitting in," even on an ad hoc spur-of-the-moment basis, was welcomed rather than disapproved. "Wowing some people," in your somewhat snarky phrasing -- well, we're entertaining an audience, right? If the musicians onstage think that adding your contribution would make the music more entertaining, and they'd enjoy your participation, then it's a positive rather than a negative, IMHO.

There are a hell of a lot of people in the world telling us when not to play. Any performing musician with whom I'm acquainted, has dealt with a variety of strictures imposed on their creativity. Personally, I would much rather deal with the problems created by eagerness, openness -- yes, even with "desire to play and wow some people," if you must -- than with a variety of Music Police restrictions.

Doesn't excuse insensitivity, bad taste, selfish disregard for the musicians onstage and/or the audience. But I still disagree with the blanket "no."

[JMUSIC]

In the harmonica world the they call that person a "Gus". Sits out in the audience while a performer or band is playing and whips out a harp. Half the time in the wrong key, and proceeds to distract the people listening and the performer. Try that in a blues town like Memphis and you may be wearing that harp where the sun don't shine. I actually had a (drunk)guy during the sound check trying get me to give him MY harp while I walked around wireless listening for balance of the instruments on stage. He was quite insistent and, needless to say, was escorted out of the bar soon after that.

[greg_tsam]

I know a guy who used to bring his Fender Squire with him to watch live shows all the time no matter who it was. He'd sit near the front, way in the back and off to the side but usually it was front row center and play along, unplugged, of course. He was just an overly eager and excited about life kind of guy. I never liked this behavior but wasn't gonna stop him or mention anything even if it were my group playing up there. I think he eventually figured out it was bad form.

[Jim Ferguson]

If you are a mime.......I have no problem............. BUT otherwise NO WAY.......to disruptive to the performers and also the audience who have come to hear the performers & not you.
Peace,

[Miked]

If you are a mime.......I have no problem......

I can see the Marcel Marceau impersonator doing some air mandolin off to the side along with his rope and cage routine. Not a distraction at all!

[journeybear]

Maybe my experience is atypical, but I have been in many situations where "sitting in," even on an ad hoc spur-of-the-moment basis, was welcomed rather than disapproved ... If the musicians onstage think that adding your contribution would make the music more entertaining, and they'd enjoy your participation, then it's a positive rather than a negative, IMHO.

I don't think we're quite on the same page. It seems to me you are describing situations which might lead to someone the band knows getting asked up on stage or otherwise join in; my response was to imagine what it would take for someone unknown to the band to impose himself upon the proceedings. Hence the phrase which irked you, which I presented with no intended snarkiness, but in an attempt to understand the motivation behind such untoward behavior. In other words, someone whose enthusiasm gets the better of his better judgment, someone with more balls than brains. I don't think that was the case as described by the OP, as he did not follow through on his impulse, but did wonder about it enough that he sought counsel from us - again, perhaps showing poor judgment. (Oh, we're not really all that bad ...) But none of this has anything to do with the OP, which concerned playing off to the side, not joining in in any way. Unless he was harboring a secret desire to be noticed and asked up - but he has said nothing that would lead to that conclusion.

Indeed, in his second post, he mentioned a sort of frustration in seeing a band play good music that was being ignored. I don't see how going to get his mandolin and playing off to the side is going to rectify that situation. About the best thing one can do is go up close, pay attention, applaud and cheer after each song (not overdoing it so as to seem false), and hopefull buld some enthusiasm among others this way - enthusiasm is contagious.

Doesn't excuse insensitivity, bad taste, selfish disregard for the musicians onstage and/or the audience. But I still disagree with the blanket "no."

Actually, I do, too, but I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which, by and large, this would be acceptable. Concert situations, however casual they may appear, are still somewhat formal, and people who disregard common sense and common courtesy shouldn't be too surprised if they don't get the response they might have wished for. Though they probably will be surprised, as they probably have not thought this all through.

I can think of only one instance where something like this has worked, and it is part of rock 'n' roll history ( or legend). Early in The Who's career they were playing in a club, and some bloke, rather full of himself, brazenly yelled out that their drummer was crap and he could do much better. They called his bluff, he got up on stage, and blew everyone away. That was how Keith Moon joined the band. I'm not saying you have to be that good, but you should be able to back up your bravado with talent. And I'll bet he hadn't been off to the side, drumming quietly by himself ...

[Jim Ferguson]

I can see the Marcel Marceau impersonator doing some air mandolin off to the side along with his rope and cage routine. Not a distraction at all!

Haha.......good one Mike. That was the mental image I was imagining too except doing the trapped in a room routine & trying to feel his way out....
Peace,

[journeybear]

Imagine playing in the band and someone starts doing that - and attracts more attention than you! Probably time to consider a career change ... Heck, the start-up costs for a mime career must be the lowest possible, and maintenance costs, negligible.

[peterangell]

Ok, so I play bass in a rock band and have been playing paid gigs for 20 years. Last weekend we played at a festival to about 500 people who had all paid 50 quid to see all the bands and sleep in a tent in a wet field... Well, it takes all sorts.

5 minutes before our set, the orgnaniser turns up whilst we are setting up and tells us we now have a Harmonica player who is going to join us up stage. We all look at each other knowing that the style of music we play is not in the slightest bit going to be enhanced by someone who doesn't know any of our songs, and should have been playing with the blues rock band who only just finished their set.

Anyhow, the harmonica player turns up, explains how he is a professional who has played Glastonbury etc etc, and asks what keys are our songs where in, as he opens up his satchel revealing about 8 harmonicas. Again we all look at each other in an awkward way, as we don't want to upset the organiser, and also don't want to have our set ruined, so how on earth are we going to get out of this one?

Then, the guitarist pipes up... "one thing you need to know is that we all tune down 1 semitone to help the singer"... The harmonica man looks down at his case of harmonicas, "oh well that puts paid to that idea" at which point he shrugs his shoulders, packs up his bag, and leaves the stage... Result!!

[journeybear]

Beauty! Well done, indeed! Welcome to the Café! That story alone puts you in good stead.

[Steve L]

I hope you stood the guitarist for his drinks for the evening.

[peterangell]

Cheers guys. My first forum post, but an active member of Song-A-Week Social Group for a month or so now... I, of course, offed to get the beers in....then nipped round the back of the stage where they had a few crates of freebies for the performers!