A question for the performing musicians

[belbein]

Again, I thank you all for answering my question. I do want to point out that it was a question about etiquette, not a proposal, but perhaps it doesn't matter.

I think it's interesting the assumptions we make about people. "Not in a band." "Not a performer." Etc. I have been guilty of jumping to conclusions on many occassions, but I guess it's most obvious when people do it about you.

I don't really want to join the argument here--I didn't actually ask the question to start an argument--but aesthetics is one of my interests, and I feel compelled to note that the separation between performer/artist/writer and audience/reader has been eroding for a great deal of the last, oh, 500 years. The last 50 years has seen an exponential increase in erosion, to the point that Umberto Eco gave a talk here a year or so ago in which he basically said that the line does not exist. In virtually every area of the arts, the formerly passive consumer has insisted on becoming or been invited to become in one way or another a participant.

It's very nice and convenient for the performer/artist/writer to have a nice disciplined situation in which the performers perform toward the audience and the audience listens toward the performers and the proscenium of the stage is the dividing line between them. Convenient, and disciplined, but not real life anymore, at least not in the world of art. But then, we all play one kind or another of "old time music," whatever we choose to call it, so I guess by definition we yearn for more comfortable, more understandably defined roles for everyone.

But that's all beside the point. I do appreciate the responses and even the passion. In case some of you haven't noticed, I surrendered to the great weight of opinion and conceded the field some posts ago. Now let's argue about something that really matters, like whether flat-topped or arch-topped mandolins are better and whether mandolin players or banjo players are smarter. (The right answers are "flat-topped" and "banjo players," in case you're interested. And my Toyota Tacoma can whip your Ford F150s butt, just in case anyone wants to know.)

[catmandu2]

Umberto Eco gave a talk here a year or so ago in which he basically said that the line does not exist.

Does it?

I'm fascinated by the "new physics"; it's difficult to really conceive of much of anything in concrete, discrete terms. It's there if you want it--and folks make use of it in practical ways, but culture is derived of some pretty archaic stuff. Not that institutions are "bad"--only that it should be seen in "context"

[journeybear]

Good for you, belbein - rooting for the underdogs! It might have helped from the start if you had given us more detail, so we would not have been led to make assumptions. You still haven't said whether you are a performer, but the consensus among most of the performers' responses implies that what you asked is foreign to us, hence that assumption. But you're right - you declared your advised position some time ago, so this is a done deal, due to only devolve further with further input.

[almeriastrings]

Foldedpath correctly notes context, I agree with his take.

Same here. We have had this happen quite a few times, and I must say - it is very irritating. It distracts the performers and certainly the audience. Nine times out of ten too, the people who do this don't even know the material and are basically just making a horrible, discordant, out-of-time noise (not that I am suggesting the OP would do this). Best to find a "pick-around", jam, or open mic to hone your talents.

[OldSausage]

The last 50 years has seen an exponential increase in erosion, to the point that Umberto Eco gave a talk here a year or so ago in which he basically said that the line does not exist. In virtually every area of the arts, the formerly passive consumer has insisted on becoming or been invited to become in one way or another a participant.

Does that Umberto guy ever play at Big Bubba's Pickin' Barn? I feel like I've seen him down there. Holding a banjo.

[belbein]

No, I think Professor Ecco would probably play something like a harmonica--harmonica like wine-glasses harmonica. Though now that I think of it, his philosophy about the wishy-washy boundaries of reading and writing, and banjo players' ideas of rhythm, are somewhat similar. (I say this as a banjo player.)

[belbein]

Probably not the last word ...

Having provoked an argument when not intending to, I now intend to provoke not just an argument, but perhaps a sh!t storm. You are welcome to join me over on a new post: "Saving Real Music."

[Steve L]

Next time you see Mr. Ecco giving a presentation, set up a podium off to the side with no microphone but just talk quietly while he's speaking. You may get to see him change his mind.

[journeybear]

I bet you meant to say "waste matter whirlwind" or something like that.

[Laird]

No, I think Professor Ecco would probably play something like a harmonica--harmonica like wine-glasses harmonica.

More likely he has two wine glasses carefully spaced on the table with his harmonica swinging gently between them, marking time with the sweetest little ting-ting-ting.

Inside jokes aside, I love the image of Eco playing banjo!

[Paul Cowham]

I agree with the consensus on this thread that playing along to a live gig is generally disrespectful to the performers and the other audience members.

Sometimes at gigs, particularly Irish/celtic ones, when a fast set of tunes is started quite a large proportion of the audience starts clapping along (not always in time), which I can find to be pretty irksome. In some ways, this is not that different from what the original poster was asking, but if it means that the audience gets more out of the gig then who am I to say it is a bad thing.

At folk gigs, audience participation is actively encouraged and the chorus is often taught to the audience before a song is sung to allow them to join in, I suspect that the dividing line between performer and audience has been blurred with folk music for as long as it's been sung/played...

[foldedpath]

At folk gigs, audience participation is actively encouraged and the chorus is often taught to the audience before a song is sung to allow them to join in, I suspect that the dividing line between performer and audience has been blurred with folk music for as long as it's been sung/played...

I was at a Genticorum concert recently, where they taught the audience to sing the chorus for one song. It was hilarious fun, because the words were in French, and each successive phrase in the chorus got increasingly longer and harder to pronounce. Those guys put on a hell of a show. However, this was all initiated and controlled by the performers, not imposed on the band from an outside source. I think that's the distinction we're all trying to preserve here.

There's a limit to how far you can take audience participation, too. You'd have to be a heck of an amateur musician, well-versed in Quebecois trad music, to sit in with those guys if they had offered a jam at the end of the night.

[greg_tsam]

I don't really want to join the argument here--I didn't actually ask the question to start an argument--

In case some of you haven't noticed, I surrendered to the great weight of opinion and conceded the field some posts ago. Now let's argue about something that really matters,

...

Too late! haha... You started the "argument" by posting a vague question then joined in by responding. And people noticed you threw in the towel but that doesn't mean we have so as often occurs on the MC the discussion has grown a life of it's own and will continue until everyone who feels compelled to chime in, chimes in. And, I'm pretty sure we're arguing/discussing something that really matters.

It's a good topic b/c when I first started playing seriously I wanted to sit in the back and play along to see if my skills were good enough to be in a band. (They weren't and I would have been a distraction but not known it.) I didn't do it but I've seen others make that mistake. I've been in a band and had someone do that. Distraction in that we noticed but it wasn't anything that really bothered us. Now, the drunk guy who decided our rhythms were off and was going to help by clapping (offbeat) really loud in the front row was annoying and distracting.

I used to think it wasn't a big deal if they stayed quiet and in the back but unless you're in the parking lot or another room warming up, I'd shy away from doing it. Nowadays, if I'm near music I want to play but if I'm there to watch the show that's what I do.

[belbein]

I really was going to abandon this thread, having gotten my answer and started another, intentional argument. But Mr. Tsam's point about clapping at folk concerts really struck a chord (NPI) with me. I have a friend who's an inveterate folkie, and he always ALWAYS is the one who starts the clapping--right in my ear. I hate it. I think it's rude, even if he was on beat, which he never is. So, good point, Mr. Tsam. I was convinced before (beaten down?) but now I understand, too.

[tprior]

I play many outdoor venues, Patio's outside restaurants etc.... Let me be clear..it's a gig...we are hired,paid.

If someone is playing music on the side , well, they shouldn't...most likely the staff would ask you to go away anyway...

As a general thing, I guess I would have to ask, why would anyone think it's ok to pull out an instrument at a Restaurant or an outdoor event where a band is hired to play, or a duo /trio..why would you think that is ok ? Especially if you are within earshot of the band. If you are way off and nobody can hear you..then all is well...no harm done...no foul....

It's not ok, in fact it's outright rude not only to the artists performing but to the patrons sitting and listening. People singing along is quite another deal, bands like that ,want that and encourage this, it keeps people alive and in participation. Note : they didn't bring Guitars and Banjo's....

Now if you are bold enough to approach the artists and ask to sit in with an Instrument , that's a different deal, but artists performing is not a jam or open mic unless advertised as such.


Ok imagine this scenario... Duo/Trio A is playing acoustic Instruments..in tune...Player B arrives at the scene and decides to participate in a location that both can be heard by the patrons and the performing artists, and yes..player B is dreadfully out of tune with Duo/Trio A....but plays anyway...

Worlds collide right here....

In closing..any professional or regular performing player would never do this anyway..protocol trumps desire

[neil argonaut]

I'll stay out of the main discussion but just say the audience participation that bugs me the most is when people clap on the on beat of a song that should have a clap on the backbeat if anywhere; especially with soul, r n b and rock n roll stuff it can really suck the life out of it.

[JAK]

I wouldn't advise trying to play along if the performer is Chris Thile....

[Trent Crawford]

At our regular jam night, a guy has showed up with a harmonica this week and was just flat out blowing along sitting in his seat... It was ridiculous.

If you`re out of view and unheard to others i see no problem with it.

But my 2 cents would be to get up there and have a crack! Don`t let fear hold ya back.

[belbein]

Hmmm, now I'm beginning the understand the subtleties. Not in a restaurant. Not outdoors. Not in Key West, not in Almeira, Sp., not in Greg Tsam's neighborhood in Houston. But OK in New South Wales. Got it.

[journeybear]

Still trying to be funny, eh? Keep trying. No, it's really quite simple - not at a show, but OK at a jam. Oh wait - even in NSW it was not OK at a jam. Hmmm ...

[allenhopkins]

OK, gonna jump in, with a slightly different perspective:

First, let me say that I have been playing "semi-pro" (never made a living at it), for 45-50 years. In that period I've played a wide variety of acoustic musical genres, and in every role from soloist, to "front person" for a band, to anonymous voice in the chorus.

I think the OP's initial question is a bit more nuanced and complex than one could tell from some of the, excuse the expression, "knee-jerk" answers. Of course it's wrong to annoy/distract the performer(s), presumptuously take on an uninvited "feature" role, insert one's self where not wanted, try to "horn in" on an organized, set-piece (or "semi-set-piece") performance, and in any way reduce the attention and/or compensation that the "feature act" is getting.

But: I have "sat in," invited, sorta-invited, and actually uninvited (until I showed up and started playing) at many a gig with other musicians; and, if one has sufficient sensitivity and taste, one can make a contribution. So much depends on the nature of the gig, the openness of the musicians, and, frankly, one's own skill and experience. I've walked around street fairs with my Strad-O-Lin slung over my back, and had a performer say, "Hey, you with the mandolin -- you know Footprints In the Snow?" When I'm hired to play at festivals, and I'm hanging around the stage as another act performs, I've been known to slip in some blues harp or whatever.

Now, in many cases these other musicians know me, and are pretty sure I won't louse up their performance. And the OP's scenario of playing quietly offstage, out of the sight lines and inaudible to musicians and audience, is different from a "guest cameo" sit-in such as I described above. But I've been to a multitude of "jams" that actually involved a series of individual stage performances, where other jam attendees would just back up whomever was at the microphone, without asking or being asked.

I'm starting my farmers' market season next week, and I intend to send out e-mails to some of my musical friends, saying "If you're out and about and want to sit in for a couple tunes, stop by." I do hope they'll tell me in advance, so I can set up a mic etc. for them, but I'll throw a couple extra mics and stands in the back of the Honda just in case.

Taste is the crucial variable -- that and sensitivity to the on-stage musicians' preferences, awareness of the type of performance, and a realistic assessment of one's own ability to contribute without interfering or stealing the spotlight. I have been guilty of poor taste, overstepping my bounds, and getting the dirtiest of looks, on more than one occasion. But I would dissent -- in a nuanced fashion, of course -- from the blanket "no's" that seem to predominate in the thread.

And, of course, YMMV...

[Dan Johnson]

"learn to listen and listen to learn" - sometimes it's better to shut up and listen. Get your own gig if you want one.

[250sc]

Personally, I don't even like it when people applaud after a solo. I've seen it done in bluegrass shows and jazz shows. After a hot solo the audience applauds right into the next part of the song. I know they're just showing their appreciation and would never think of complaining to anyone about it but the song is still going and they're making noise through it. Just my opinion.

[Mike Bunting]

Yes, that is something that is seriously frowned upon in jazz circles. To applaud one solo over top of the next one is extremely rude. I have often felt the same way at bluegrass shows.

[bobby bill]

Yes, that is something that is seriously frowned upon in jazz circles.

I guess it depends on the circles. We are rather enthusiastic down here. I'll never forget the first year I was here in Austin (um, 37 years ago) and went to a classical performance (can't remember what anymore). After the first movement of a four movement piece, half the audience applauded and the other half went, "Shhhhhhhhhhh." It was hilarious - but they weren't stepping on any notes.