This one appears to be a scam: Gibson F4 in England

[Mock Schimock]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-GIBSON-M...2#ht_920wt_934

Don't do it!!!!!!

[Jared Heddinger]

"Patented Feb 1, 1998”

Sounds like a legitimate auction to me!

[houseworker]

It's been reported, I doubt it'll survive the day.

[Dave Hanson]

£1.200.00 buy it now for an F4 doesn't sound genuine to me, he has other quality instruments up for sale/auction including a Stelling banjo, all at the same buy it now price, how can this be ?

Dave H

[houseworker]

£1.200.00 buy it now for an F4 doesn't sound genuine to me, he has other quality instruments up for sale/auction including a Stelling banjo, all at the same buy it now price, how can this be ?

They're clearly fraudulent listings. The BIN information has been inserted in the listing as an image file to escape routine detection by eBay. I've reported several of them, enough for eBay to work out what's going on.

[houseworker]

They've all been pulled. I emailed the seller expressing interest but haven't heard back as yet.

[bmac]

Please explain what there is about this auction which suggests fraud.... Does the seller's business exist?? or is it a fake company? is the repair invoice fake? What about the instrument seems wrong or not authentic? To sabatage ones legitimate auction of an instrument without solid evidence of fraud is, in my opinion, contemptible. Nothing in the above comments has proved anything. All the patent date means that the seller made a typo.

[houseworker]

Please explain what there is about this auction which suggests fraud.... Does the seller's business exist?? or is it a fake company? is the repair invoice fake? What about the instrument seems wrong or not authentic? To sabatage ones legitimate auction of an instrument without solid evidence of fraud is, in my opinion, contemptible. Nothing in the above comments has proved anything. All the patent date means that the seller made a typo.

You're somewhat late to the party, methinks.

[mrmando]

That's OK, since this fake ad is constantly being relisted on eBay, there will be more opportunities. In fact, here's the latest instance of it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-GIBSON-M...item2a1f86deaa

Bart: the big tipoff in this particular ad is that it breaks eBay rules. If you don't think that constitutes sufficient evidence of fraud, you could get in touch with the "seller" without going through eBay, as the ad asks you to do, and send payment in some unrecoverable form (i.e., not PayPal), again without going through eBay ... and then when no mandolin arrives, you'll have solid, 24-karat proof that the ad was fake.

But I don't recommend doing that.

[Gary Hedrick]

That one F4 picture has been used about a thousand times for these scam listings on ebay....that and the 1927 mandola....Sheesh sometimes they wear me out....

[barney 59]

It seems that these particular listings are coming out of England ,at least that is what the listing says. I've been seeing them for a couple of years. My guess is that they are originating from the same individual. It would seem that he/she must catch enough fish to have been continuing for this long. It must be worth their time. I know at least with the mandolin ads that there are some individuals, and right here on MC, that are right on top of it and get them shut down consistently and in short order but yet these ads continue to surface again. Could it be that sometimes it looks like it was shut down because it's been removed but that maybe it's been removed because someone actually bought it. His asking prices are so appealing that some individual might see the listing and realize that they if the don't get on it right away that someone is going to snatch it right up. A sales technique that I like to refer to as "The Lloyd Lure"! I've seen some of these listings myself that were for items that I would really like to have and at super bargain prices and if for a second I thought they were real or at least thought they were PROBABLY real I would have run on down to Western Union like a shot taking my wallet and leaving my brain behind.

[Brutus1999]

Oh NOOOOO! I just bid on this. Of course, my bid is $1.26, so if I win this at that price, it will be really AWESOME.

Hey, let me make it clearer to bmac, who used the rather strong term "contemptible" in reference to the important warning from mock schimock , mr. mando, and others....

The ad APPEARS legit. It has a seller that appears legit, with lots of good feedback. It has a PAYPAL button and says that it has ebay "buyer protection." Yeah, right .... then at the bottom, it says this:
ATTENTION BUYERS & BIDDERS

BIDDING PROCESS IS NOT ALLOWED ON THIS ITEM BUT YOU CAN GET IT FOR US $1,800.00 AT BUY IT NOW. WHO WILL BID ON IT BEFORE TO TAKE NOTE OF OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS WILL BE CONSIDERED INVALID BUYER. IN ORDER TO BUY THIS ITEM PLEASE EMAIL US AT 2012SELLOUT@GMAIL.COM AND WE WILL GET BACK TO YOU AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. PLEASE ENTER SUBJECT LINE "THE GIBSON MANDOLIN STYLE F-4 W CASE INSTRUMENT"


We also accept offers from buyers. To submit your offer please enter your best offer US $ and your email address


So -- the buyer is NOT permitted to use PayPal and instead must contact the seller (at a VERY PROFESSIONAL gmail address) and work out arrangements to pay outside of PayPal, outside of the buyer protection, and most likely, even the name of the seller officially listed is probably just copied from somewhere else and the REAL "seller" isn't that person at all (obviously).

So, it's okay for bmac to question someone who calls something else a scam........but to seriously use words like "contemptible" at someone who was obviously correct and trying to do the right thing...well, that's just contem....oh, never mind, I won't go there....

.

That's OK, since this fake ad is constantly being relisted on eBay, there will be more opportunities. In fact, here's the latest instance of it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-GIBSON-M...item2a1f86deaa

Bart: the big tipoff in this particular ad is that it breaks eBay rules. If you don't think that constitutes sufficient evidence of fraud, you could get in touch with the "seller" without going through eBay, as the ad asks you to do, and send payment in some unrecoverable form (i.e., not PayPal), again without going through eBay ... and then when no mandolin arrives, you'll have solid, 24-karat proof that the ad was fake.

But I don't recommend doing that.

[houseworker]

It seems that these particular listings are coming out of England ,at least that is what the listing says

These listings aren't coming out of any English-speaking country, that's for sure! What the listings say would be meaningless anyway, since this particular scam relies on hacking existing eBay accounts (hence the 'positive' feedback).

[Brutus1999]

eBay sent this message to(brutus1999).

Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.

MC228 Security notice: eBay listing removed - brutus1999


Hello brutus1999,

We're writing to let you know that the following listing was removed and the item is no longer available:

180917558954 - THE GIBSON MANDOLIN STYLE F-4 W CASE INSTRUMENT

The listing was removed because the item appears to have been listed without the account holder's permission. At this time, we're restoring the account to its original owner. You're no longer obligated to pay for the item.

[Pete Summers]

Dang, seems like these Ebay links are always removed removed before I get here. I was hoping to bid on it before to take note of the terms, hence becoming an invalid buyer. Shoot.

[barney 59]

These listings aren't coming out of any English-speaking country, that's for sure! What the listings say would be meaningless anyway, since this particular scam relies on hacking existing eBay accounts (hence the 'positive' feedback).

So how do you determine that it isn't coming from where they say it is? I'd like to know how to determine that---could come in handy. The listing says "Chico" but you figure out that it's really Modesto then maybe that's a clue that the seller is hiding something and not to be trusted. What,England scumbag free? Plenty here in the US!

[Brutus1999]

I would not buy ANYTHING on ebay if I can't use Paypal. Period. And when someone has some weird "extra instructions", well, it gets really weird. You can also look at what other items that "seller" has for sale and determine whether there's something strange about that. When I tried to send an e-mail to the seller at the "official" address (not the one that appears in the "special" instructions"), it would not let me send to that person. Lots of dubious hints....mainly, I won't send money without some sort of ironclad assurance that it's on the level -- even if you miss a great deal, well, another great deal will come along.......the stress and anticipation of pride/greed can cause any of us to do something impulsive -- to our detriment --

[houseworker]

So how do you determine that it isn't coming from where they say it is? I'd like to know how to determine that---could come in handy. The listing says "Chico" but you figure out that it's really Modesto then maybe that's a clue that the seller is hiding something and not to be trusted. What,England scumbag free? Plenty here in the US!

I'd like to say that it's that good old feminine intuition striking once again!

But seriously, the element of the eBay listings actually written by the scammers lacks the normal cadences present in English when it is spoken as a first language even when the speaker is poorly educated. The repeated confusion of singular and plural is a characteristic that tends to indicate the writer comes from the Far East. If you look at enough ebay listings where the sellers are from China you get to recognise the curious literary style; the genuine listings often possess a remarkable charm not found with these scams.

Yes, England and the US both have plenty of crooks, but a scam like this is invariably run from another country out of reach of the law or any risk of recall of bank transfers, and far beyond any hint of an extradition treaty.

This particular scam appears to be up for sale on a website somewhere, seeing as how the very extensive list of items on offer is exactly the same each time. The variation seems to be in precisely how they embed the invitation to pay them directly into the listing without eBay detecting it immediately.

Careful reading of the existing feedback generally gives you a good picture of the account holder, often strikingly at odds with the hundred or so 'bargains' that suddenly appear after the account's been hacked.

[houseworker]

For interest (and for Bart's education) this is the specific listing linked to in the OP.

[John McCoy]

For interest (and for Bart's education) this is the specific listing linked to in the OP.

I like that. The "GIBSON MANDOLIN GUITAR Free" (whatever that means) was patented on Feb 1, 1998. From the photo it's mighty well preserved to be a remarkable 14 years old.

[Brutus1999]

Well, I agree about 95% with what houseworker wrote, especially the last few paragraphs.

The points about poor syntax, grammar, errors in the way that English words are put together can be a clue that the writer is not from Britain, Ireland, Australia or the USA, but that may be off point. Someone for whom English is not a first language could certainly still be making a legitimate posting -- and, on the other side, well, there are plenty of American's who's writing DEFFINATELY can make you're Head spin by making Errors that really arnt important and should in no Way be used to judge Anyone.

So, sure, the grammar, syntax, (not SIN TAX), etc. "might" be a clue that someone is not native English-speaking, but the real issues about scammers involve other clues that houseworker pointed out -- especially deals too good to be true and prices all the same ??, and especially, especially, asking the buyer to ignore normal ebay payment procedures!

[Scott Tichenor]

This same F-4 comes up as a bogus listing at least twice a week, sometimes more. I've lost count how many times I've seen it. If you're watching eBay all the time you don't even need to click into this auction to know it's bogus from the image. Here's the scary part: the person posting these is hijacking accounts in order to post and some of these have hundreds or thousands of perfect or near-perfect records. There may be more sophisticated ways to hijack an account but all you really need is some time, a PC and a bit of insight into how careless individuals are in establishing a strong password. Do a Google search for the obvious question if you don't believe me. Or they get the password in an even easier way: you email it to them after they send you a bogus eBay spoofed message that replies to a non-eBay address you didn't check.

But here's the odd part. If this cat would just get some new photos and text and be little more clever with their wording they'd be very successful. Using the same image over and over for the same product is pretty dumb. It gets worse, there are really smart people doing this kind of activity and they're making a killing, but the guy posting this particular F-4 over and over is clearly not one of them.

[houseworker]

Someone for whom English is not a first language could certainly still be making a legitimate posting

Indeed, as I readily acknowledged. But if you go back via the feedback to earlier listings from the same seller, you can compare. In the listing the OP referenced, the real eBay account holder was a Scot living in a village just outside Edinburgh, with a very different listing and writing style. barney 59 asked me how I determined it wasn't coming from where it said it was, and I tried to explain.

American's who's writing DEFFINATELY can make you're Head spin by making Errors that really arnt important and should in no Way be used to judge Anyone.

Sorry, that's definitely written by someone who has English as a first language!

[houseworker]

But here's the odd part. If this cat would just get some new photos and text and be little more clever with their wording they'd be very successful. Using the same image over and over for the same product is pretty dumb. It gets worse, there are smart people doing this kind of activity, but the guy posting this particular F-4 over and over is clearly not one of them.

It's unlikely to be the same person doing these listings. They'll be buying a set of several hundred different items (pictures and descriptions) off a website ready to post whenever they manage to hack an email account. They know the listings get taken down as soon as they're spotted, but hope they've found at least one sucker first.

[Brutus1999]

Yes, houseworker I do agree with you 100%, actually. I was just making a general comment about how we "guesstimate" where someone is from based on grammar and syntax and cadence, etc. Perhaps if I had written: "Writing of people who make spinning head" that might have been a little closer!

After reading so many advertisements and instruction books (mainly from China) I wonder if someone who is a native English speaker could make a decent living offering to "fix up" the language for various merchants. He/she wouldn't even have to charge much -- because it would be possible to fix up a lot copy in a fairly short time -- and the seller would have better copy while the "fixer" could make, well some $$ on the side. Then again, some of the translations do add entertainment factor, just as my attempts at other languages usually bring about smiles .. and occasional laughter.

Translating is very hard -- almost always better to have a native speaker do the final polish. I used the phrase "hungry as a horse" to someone from a non-English speaking country, and they asked if horses were hungry .. then again, we still can't get a lot of mando folks to understand that "F-style" has NOTHING to do with "F-holes" ....