How high does the saddle sit on the thumbwheels? Loar 400

**Brutus1999** · Jun-06-2012, 11:12am

I just received a pre-owned Loar 400 (via eBay). It looks to be in excellent condition, great low action (lower than I'm used to from a 1917 Gibson A-1). My only question concerns the bridge. The saddle on the bridge seems to be set quite high, riding high on the thumbwheels. As I mentioned, the action is low. Maybe the bridge is supposed to ride that high, but I'm accustomed to seeing mando bridges where they are almost a tight "sandwich" between the bridge, the thumbwheels, and the saddle on top.

Is there something wrong with this or is it supposed to be this way?

**Brutus1999** · Jun-06-2012, 11:56am

To further clarify -- it seems like there is 1/4 inch, which, I think, means that the vibrations from the strings would only be transmitted through the long screws? Maybe someone can help me figure this out?

**Philphool** · Jun-06-2012, 1:12pm

As long as the bridge/saddle is stable, the height shouldn't matter that much.

What I would be concerned about is whether the saddle needs to be cranked up that high because the top has sunk (think loose tone bar or poor carving) or because the neck angle was not built correctly.

**houseworker** · Jun-06-2012, 7:12pm

It gets quite heated (too much so at times), but this thread is quite informative about bridge and neck set issues with The Loar.

**Willie** · Jun-06-2012, 8:26pm

It sounds like someone carved the bridge feet too low when fitting the bridge to the top, that would cause the saddle to be raised high on the post...One problem that this could cause is that the bridge may have a tendency to lean much easier than if it was shorter....Also maybe someone fitted a shorter bridge saddle on the bridge base and that would mean the saddle would have to rest higher on the posts....I don`t think any of this would affect the sound very much, play it and see what happens and if you find any problems have a repairman take a look at it or possibly you can fit a new bridge saddle on it....

Willie

**Brutus1999** · Jun-10-2012, 5:34pm

I'm thinking about just going with a CA bridge anyhow -- my main concern is whether there was some structural reason (and therefore problem) as to why the seller had the bridge saddle set so high. If so, I would return the mando, but if a properly fitted CA bridge would solve it, then it's all good. Maybe I'll just try lowering the saddle with the thumbwheels and if the action drops lower without any buzzing problems, maybe it just means that the previous owner liked a higher action?

------------

Originally Posted by Willie

It sounds like someone carved the bridge feet too low when fitting the bridge to the top, that would cause the saddle to be raised high on the post...One problem that this could cause is that the bridge may have a tendency to lean much easier than if it was shorter....Also maybe someone fitted a shorter bridge saddle on the bridge base and that would mean the saddle would have to rest higher on the posts....I don`t think any of this would affect the sound very much, play it and see what happens and if you find any problems have a repairman take a look at it or possibly you can fit a new bridge saddle on it....

Willie

**houseworker** · Jun-10-2012, 5:43pm

Originally Posted by Brutus1999

I'm thinking about just going with a CA bridge anyhow -- my main concern is whether there was some structural reason (and therefore problem) as to why the seller had the bridge saddle set so high. If so, I would return the mando, but if a properly fitted CA bridge would solve it, then it's all good

I'd get the mandolin checked over by a luthier for your own peace of mind.

**multidon** · Jun-10-2012, 9:41pm

We need to remember that bridges are adjustable for a reason . To me it is not a good thing they the saddle is resting on the base and the action is right. What happens, then, if something changes due to temperature or humidity, and the bridge needs to be lowered? You have nowhere to go. In my opinion, they work the best when the action is nice and low but buzz free when the saddle is set somewhere in the middle. That way you can adjust it up or down if need be and circumstances change. I don't think it is a worry that the vibrations travel through the screws; they were designed that way. If the saddle were always resting on the base then you could never adjust it, so why have an adjustable bridge at all? Just get a fixed bridge. One bridge that addresses this problem quite effectively is the Weber Brekke bridge (the original Brekke, not the "traditional" Brekke), which is designed so that there is wood to wood contact from string to bridge while still maintaining adjustability.

**Jim** · Jun-10-2012, 10:34pm

In my opinion, they work the best when the action is nice and low but buzz free when the saddle is set somewhere in the middle. That way you can adjust it up or down if need be and circumstances change

+1

**houseworker** · Jun-11-2012, 12:32am

Originally Posted by multidon

We need to remember that bridges are adjustable for a reason.

Yes, it's to be able to adjust the action to the preference of the individual player, and it's always been a bit of a gimmick.

Originally Posted by multidon

What happens, then, if something changes due to temperature or humidity, and the bridge needs to be lowered?

It's hard to conceive of a mandolin so poorly built that temperature or humidity would produce that sort of necessity. Which of your instruments has this problem?

Originally Posted by multidon

In my opinion, they work the best when the action is nice and low but buzz free when the saddle is set somewhere in the middle.

Nonsense, the mandolin should be playable with the bridge set at any height, and the height of the bridge should be properly proportional to to the action. Otherwise you're sacrificing half of the already limited adjustment available to you. Unfortunately The Loar mandolins have neck set issues which means this may not be achievable.

**houseworker** · Jun-11-2012, 5:11am

Originally Posted by Big Joe

Bob... High nuts and bridges are the norm for nearly all mandolins sold unless the dealer does the required setup before delivery to the customer. It is not a Loar thing, just a common issue with most manufacturers of stringed instruments...not just mandolins. It is better for them to set them too high rather than too low. Dealers can handle high action with set up much easier than low. Manufacturers do this on purpose. They actually expect dealers to do the setup they are paid to do (the markup on instruments included allowance for dealers to do this at time of sale...it is even in many dealer contracts). The factory cannot setup an instrument for the retail buyer since they have no way of knowing where the end buyer will live, how long it will hang before selling, or how it will be handled in the dealers store. There are too many issues for manufacturers to control.

Therefore, it is better to have a generic high setup than to even attempt to dial it in for a retail purchaser. Again, the profit margin is supposed to cover the dealer for their work to make their customer happy. That rarely occurs. Too often they will sell under a fair price with the customer not realizing they are not going to get an optimal playing instrument. Then you get threads like these. Especially with instruments sold outside the USA. It is bad enough here. But it is not a brand specific issue. It just happens there have been a few questions recently.

Originally Posted by Big Joe

houseworker... in many cases there is enough room to adjust, but they are set high at the factory. Part of a good setup is making needed adjustment to the bridge to allow for adjustments after it is delivered to the purchaser. Sometimes the bridge has enough room so it does not need to be fixed. Often the saddle is not right for that particular mandolin and it either needs to be adjusted to the right height to allow movement or it needs replacing. There are a couple different saddles available to deal with the needed saddle height.

In addition, the base of the bridge may need to be adjusted or reduced properly for that particular mandolin. It does not matter if it is an adjustable or fixed bridge, it needs to be adjusted in every way needed for optimal performance.

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

There's surprisingly little excess travel available on those thumbwheels, once you take into account the difference between someone like me who want the action "as low as it will go" and some other folks who want it what looks to me like scary high. If you use up half or three-quarters of the available adjustment range just to get it into the "as low as it will go range" those other guys would be out of luck.

Plus I really hate have one or both posts anywhere near the top of their travel, it puts too much cantilever out there on those dinky threaded posts.

Relevant quotes from an earlier thread.

**multidon** · Jun-11-2012, 12:49pm

It's hard to conceive of a mandolin so poorly built that temperature or humidity would produce that sort of necessity. Which of your instruments has this problem?

None, actually. But I have heard others report this situation and I just mention it as a possible issue. Archtop mandolins are constructed in a similar fashion to violins and I know for a fact (because I have actually met and talked with these folks) that some violinists have a "winter" bridge and a "summer" bridge for this very reason. All of my mandolins are flat tops with fixed bridges with one exception. On my only archtop, I did have to tweak the bridge up a hair when I went with a thicker gauge string set. So all of mine are fine. Thank you for your concern!

Yes, it's to be able to adjust the action to the preference of the individual player, and it's always been a bit of a gimmick.

Agreed. It does sound good in theory, doesn't it? But it seems to me that it should be self evident, considering the way the vibrations are transmitted, that better sound quality should be able to be achieved through a solid bridge (even though there are lots of mandolins with adjustable bridges that sound just fine!). That is the theory behind the Red Henry bridge (solid) and the Brekke bridge (not solid but wood to wood contact). I imagine that is also the theory behind those who want the saddle of their "adjustable" bridge to rest on the base, so that there is continuous wood to wood contact. But what I am saying is, if you do that, how can the bridge be "adjustable" if it only works in that one position? If what you really want is a fixed solid wood bridge, why not get a luthier to install one for you? And if you want an adjustable bridge, shouldn't it be able to go down as well as up?

Nonsense, the mandolin should be playable with the bridge set at any height,

I do not believe this statement to be strictly true. My own adjustable bridge has not been tampered with and was installed at the factory, but I think I could find some settings for it that would be too low and cause buzzing or too high and almost impossible to fret. Would you call either of these situations "playable"? Technically perhaps, but not playable in a practical sense. I guess I did not express myself well. Let me state it another way, if you please. Every instrument has factory specs, and that includes the action. When an instrument has an adjustable bridge, I believe that you should be able to achieve factory spec action somewhere around the middle of the screws. Then, those who want to go lower that factor spec may do so, and those who want to go high may also do that, with factory spec being the reference point. To put factory spec action at either the extreme bottom or extreme top of the bridge's travel range defeats the whole purpose of having an adjustable bridge in the first place.

**Brutus1999** · Jun-11-2012, 2:46pm

Thanks for the comments. This was purchased "used" which means that either the earlier owner just left it at factory settings or chose to make it a little higher. Maybe I'll try to post a photo.