Tips for picking for 6/8 and 9/8

[WaywardMind]

Hi, all,

I'm new to these forums and pretty new to the mandolin. (I started in November, so been playing about six months.) I did a search but couldn't find a thread on this, so I thought I'd ask:

I'm having a tough time with 6/8 and 9/8 picking. I accidentally learned how to play a particular song, Swallowtail Jig, with DUDUDU picking instead of DUDDUD and now I'm having to relearn it and it feels like it's breaking my brain. The overall process of relearning this technique as applied to the songs I know has been really slow going for the past few weeks, trying to get it right, especially when moving between strings -- especially difficult is picking something like the third bar of Morrison's Jig. The songs I'm using to force the relearning are Swallowtail Jig (warm-up, of sorts), Morrison's Jig and the Rocky Road to Dublin, usually in that order.

So my question is: Am I basically stuck with having to slowly rewire my muscle-memory by "brute" practice (heavy repetition of the proper picking) or is there a smarter way to instill the proper form in my mind and fingers?

Thanks!

[abuteague]

Instead of playing a tune, just do DUDDUDDUD to a metronome as practice. You can do it slow too.
Then, try DUDDUDDuduDUD where the "udu" is twice as fast as the DUD.
That quick "udu" can be made quicker and it is the secret to ornaments in Irish music using the mandolin. DUDDUD gets both the pulse of the music and the ornamentation as a bonus.

Don't tell anyone I told you about this. Apparently it is not usually talked about. Here I am picking a jig with lots of ornaments using just this method. You can also tell I'm no pro.


I hope the video works.

Anyway, I tell you this so that you know why DUDDUD is used and to motivate you to keep at it.

[abuteague]

I said the "udu" is twice as fast as the DUD, but it really just takes the place of the missing UD. That makes it 3 notes in place of 2. So it is probably just a third faster, but it sure feels twice as fast.

[Adam Sweet]

dud udu is the way to do it

[neil argonaut]

dud udu is the way to do it

I'd tend to strongly disagree; It may be the way you find easiest, but I don't think it can be said to be the "way to do it", as many, if not a majority of players, pick jigs DUD DUD, and many, myself included, find it far easier to get the right emphasis and feel of a jig picking DUD DUD, and certainly imo having learned something one way is no reason to continue that way, and relearning something is always worth the effort.

[Fred Keller]

The reason--as I understand it and learned it--that most Irish pickers use DUD DUD for jig and slip jig tunes is the rhythm. You're able to better get the rocking-the-boat rhythm a jig needs using this method. If you can get the necessary rhythm using a different pick direction combination, by all means. All's fair in love and music. You'll get no brownie points for using a particular method. I do tend to believe it's easier to get the rhythm needed with DUD DUD and hence...it is just a matter of doing it long enough so you stop thinking about it.

[neil argonaut]

Yeah Fred, I'd tend to agree; I'm not trying to say that DUDDUD is the right or only way, or that there's anything wrong with using DUDUDU if it gets the results your after, just that in my and many others' experience DUDDUD is better at achieving this so to suggest DUDUDU is the way to go isn't particularly helpful.

abuteague, thanks a lot for that valubale piece of knowledge; I've always found jigs far tougher to ornament than reels and the like, and have never heard this kind of triplet mentioned (maybe you're right about it not being talked about). In one or two sentences you've revolutionised my approach to jigs, cheers.

[abuteague]

Thanks Neil! That is very kind. I learned that trick from Marla Fibish: http://www.marlafibish.com/. It is such an easy ornament that you can flip it in the tune whenever you feel inclined which is how I always imagined jig ornaments were supposed to be. Just like you, my world was turned upside down when she told me. I started putting the jig ornament everywhere right away just because I could. I guess this is what happens when your picking system matches your ornamentation system which locks in with the rhythm of the piece.

If you have classical training, then I can see why DUDDUD would seem evil and unnecessary. Classical musicians are amazing and can seemingly play anything. Their technique is honed and the sense of timing is rock solid. But if the genre isn't classical, then the scope of permissible techniques opens up. The timing of Irish music isn't the timing of classical music so there are naturally techniques that don't bridge well. It is like switching from English units to metric. The beats don't all have equal duration, nor can they easily be divided into halves, quarters, and eighths. It might be written down that way, but that isn't how it sounds or how it is played. It is off enough to give a classical musician headaches. In our Irish music group we had a classical violinist join us. She told us she would adapt and that she had years of training to draw upon. After 3 months she concluded that Irish music was too hard and she dropped out. It isn't that it is hard. It is just that the techniques are different. That is where I think some of the DUDUDU vs. DUDDUD debate comes from. Also the ear vs. notation debate too. It is just a lifetime of using a solid technique leads you to dismiss the other as needless and unnecessary. If you learn how to use a hammer, you apply it to everything. I think we all do this to some extent.

In answer though to the poster's question, yes, rewire your muscle memory. It will be worth it and you can play both patterns when they are called for.

[danb]

dud dud is the most common. I use DDU DDU. I find my pattern is much easier to hang triplets on..

AS far as Irish goes, it's very hard to get the pulse and rhythm right if you use straight DUD UDU picking, you end up losing the correct beat emphasis (or struggling to get it where it can be very easy).

[Vigee]

Am I basically stuck with having to slowly rewire my muscle-memory by "brute" practice (heavy repetition of the proper picking) or is there a smarter way to instill the proper form in my mind and fingers?

Thanks!

Well, you should rewire your brain because having more control over pick direction allows you to do more and be more expressive. In general, you should pick jigs DUD DUD but all other 6/8s DUD UDU, with emphasis on the 1st and 4th beats. However, some tunes will require more finesse. Some slides (12/8) have long phrases of quarter-eighth note combinations that, if picked traditionally, would sound monotonous (D_D D_D D_D D_D). When first learning a tune, jig picking is the way to start, but ultimately, you should do what you think the tune demands.

[WaywardMind]

Sorry for the delay in response (long day at work!) and thanks a lot for the replies.

abuteague, thanks for the trick! I'll try that out. It might help me make a quicker transition to have some quick change-ups like that. I appreciate you taking the time to make a video to illustrate it!

As for DUD UDU vs DUD DUD, I can see that some people can simply alternate and get the sound. At the stage I'm at (and the way I like to really nail things "properly") I really want to hit this right and get it down now. I also figure it's great to have that flexibility of style and it will help me fine-tune my picking accuracy a bit as it forces a particular stroke direction instead of going for convenience.

Again, thanks, everyone!

[pwrs955]

Hi WaywardMind,
I play pretty much nothing but Irish and Scottish music and everyone I know plays using DUD DUD with occasional variations. I think it will give you the drive and lift you need for this type of music. Good luck!

[Francis J]

I think that it's a bit of an overstatement to say that most Irish players use DUD DUD for jigs, it's probably more like half and half. I dislike the notion that there's a "correct" way to do it. It's true to say that a lot of tutors are now insisting on DUD DUD, but some of the top Irish players don't, as a rule. I believe you shouldn't be curtailed by a predetermined pick direction, and you should work on making upstrokes sound the same as down strokes..... in a noisy session, they do anyway!

[Beanzy]

As a spin off from this thread I'd suggest people always have part of their practice session for just doing pick disciplines. Use apreggios and just decide on which beat you'll emphasise, or how many downs to ups etc. Don't just use what's done by others, expolre what you may be able to do by being different. This game of deciding to play with your picking dierections, emphasis, attack and fluidity should become a really fun part of practice.

Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I really love coming up with new ways to mess with what I thought was right. then finding something else that's just as good but different. At the moment I'm really loving using all down-strokes unless it goes to 16th notes or triplets, then once I've learned it that way I say something like " what if only every second bar were all down?", "how does it sound with xyz combination of directions" or "what if I start every repeated phrase with an up-stroke to make it sound different to the preceeding one?" "what happens if I emphasise another beat in the bar? or none at all?" there are loads of possibilities, so don't stop at learning the tune up to speed, try to trip yourself up and see what comes out, you may like it more.

[ampyjoe]

Instead of playing a tune, just do DUDDUDDUD to a metronome as practice. You can do it slow too.
Then, try DUDDUDDuduDUD where the "udu" is twice as fast as the DUD.
That quick "udu" can be made quicker and it is the secret to ornaments in Irish music using the mandolin. DUDDUD gets both the pulse of the music and the ornamentation as a bonus.

I think I remember that Tony Sullivan's Irish banjo book has a bit of a discussion on this. My understanding (and this is how I play ornaments in jigs) is that ornaments in jigs turn two notes into three notes (just as is true in reels). However in jigs this means that the normal three notes DUD becomes 4 notes. To do this DUDU is one approach. However there are 2 (or more) other ways to do it. To understand why you might want a different approach, think about which 2 notes you want to turn into 3 - there is a very definite difference in the effect of the ornament depending on which you choose. So you can play the four note sequence either DUDD or DDUD to get these different effects.

Why would you do either of these and not DUDU? For the same reason you would play a 6 note sequence DUDDUD and not DUDUDU. There are players that can make DUDUDU work for 6 notes, just as there are players that can make DUDU work for the ornament, but for me, I find DDUD and DUDD easier for getting the rhythmic effect.

I would recommend Tony's book btw (and I don't know him).


Kenny