Sustainable Ebony

[Bill Snyder]

You read Jim's post entirely differently than I did. I read his post as if he is agreeing with you EXCEPT he thinks Taylor having the ebony locked up will cause others to find alternates sooner rather than later, hence him thinking it will be a good thing in the long run.
Of course that is just my interpretation of what he wrote and it could be wrong.

[Jim Nollman]

I'm curious about something. How many of the instruments being discussed here as using a lower grade of ebony, are actually manufactured using a different species of ebony renowned for its streaking. This is called Macassar, as opposed to the uniformly black, Gabon. There's nothing "lower grade" about Macassar.

We musicians need more lessons, like this video, in sustainable aesthetics. We need to recognize that its actually an unsustainable, tradition that makes it seem "less desirable" to own an instrument with a fingerboard made with any of hundreds of other wood species just as capable as ebony. I was recently in Mexico visiting a forest devastated by hurricane damage. Thousands and thousands of huge trees uprooted, many with dark or even black wood. I asked if anyone was doing salvage to make it available to instrument makers or cabinet makers in the USA or Europe. No one stepped forward to purchase it, and the local authorities really wanted the mess cleaned up. I watched the trees being cut up for local firewood or just burned in huge piles. I know a very few of those species by their locals name, Ziricote, Guayaba, Morado. What a world.

[foldedpath]

You read Jim's post entirely differently than I did. I read his post as if he is agreeing with you EXCEPT he thinks Taylor having the ebony locked up will cause others to find alternates sooner rather than later, hence him thinking it will be a good thing in the long run.
Of course that is just my interpretation of what he wrote and it could be wrong.

I missed that interpretation, so thanks for pointing it out. Although, I'm still not sure I agree with the premise.

Think about how this would have played out in the last stages of harvesting Brazilian rosewood, roughly a hundred years ago, if someone like Taylor had corralled the supply but was still harvesting. As long as any Braz rosewood was available legally at a reasonable price, would that have actually done anything to slow demand, or force people into alternatives?

The shift to alternatives like "Indian" rosewood, and to Cocobolo and other exotic hardwoods for instrument bodies only happened after the Braz supplies were exhausted.

[HoGo]

I'm not sure it's such a good thing. There is no discussion about sustainability or alternatives in the video, so what Bob Taylor is talking about is essentially duplicating the trajectory of Brazilian Rosewood. We're gonna maximize exploitation until it's all gone.

Moreover, the extraction process is being discussed as if there is no other impact on the forest. These are entire ecosystems affected when roads are cut into the forest for access to the trees. Other trees are cut to create draglines and paths; it's not just the impact on the valuable species. Any new road immediately creates incentives for further forest clearing for agriculture. I've seen this for myself in Brazil, Venezuela, and other Central and South American countries, years ago when I was working down there.

What steps are being taken by Taylor Guitars to promote alternative woods for fingerboards? Without a mitigating effort like that, I don't see that more efficient use of the resource is all that admirable. It's just a delaying tactic until the last trees are gone. Since Taylor has a near monopoly on supply, they'll be in a position to profit from the inevitable steep rise in price when the best true-black Ebony achieves Brazilian rosewood status. It may be good business tactics, but I'm just not feeling the warm eco-fuzzy vibe that Bob Taylor is trying to project in that video.

Completely agree. The video has nothing to do with real sustainable harvesting. I remember reading that even low knotty grades larger stumps of BR were being harvested when the supply of nice old trees was all but gone. How long did that supply last? (I'm still wondering where all that beautiful "old stock" BR that almost every top builder is using on their expensive models has been hiding, It seems to me that 10 years ago there were much less br guitars offered than now) This ebony thing is exactly on the same track.
I thought I will hear that they are planting two new ebony trees in place of the old one or something similar, that would eventually lead to sustainable supply assuming there is still enough of the forest available. Just like hardwood forests here in europe. We log and export wood and area of forests is constant (actually grows somewhat as some unused agricultural areas were re-forested)

[Stephen Perry]

I don't believe current business training, current cultural norms, or the general programming of humans generate automatic altruism. Relatively few people are more concerned with the sustainability of their actions than relatively short term profit. Economic realities tend to punish those who do. That really applies to most aspects of an affluent lifestyle, as those who can afford guitars and mandolins tend to be living.

Certainly I don't have a sustainable lifestyle. I can't think of anyone I know who does. But things are improving.

In my own making, I use mostly sustainable materials. Maple. Spruce. Hide glue. But also some ebony. I can use other things. But the materials I tend to use are sourced in a complex and expensive manner because the market likes that. I'd rather use maple from my yard, spruce from the mountains, a hard US wood for the fingerboard, etc. The market devalues that approach.

[BradKlein]

I thought I will hear that they are planting two new ebony trees in place of the old one or something similar, that would eventually lead to sustainable supply assuming there is still enough of the forest available. Just like hardwood forests here in europe. We log and export wood and area of forests is constant (actually grows somewhat as some unused agricultural areas were re-forested)

I am no expert in tropical forestry, but I don't thing that the logging practices that are used in Europe and North America can be applied to tropical forests. Some economically important trees just can't be 'farmed' as of now. I don't know exactly how this applies to ebony and rosewood species.

And of course, poverty and deeply entrenched political corruption are enormous factors in many of the countries in the tropics. It's hard to imagine the scale of the challenges if you haven't been on the ground there.

[Santiago]

Bob's always been a class act. My biggest problem with Taylor is no mandolins.

[Mike Black]

If you noticed in the original post there is a link at the bottom to the Taylor website with more information. It talks there more about sustainability and how they have also partnered up with the environmental organization GreenWood Global. That's who's helping with the actual sustainability.

Bob's video is more about how they are going to start with practical "less waste" tree cutting method instead of the wastful cutting that has been going on to get a specific "black" tree. I can see that the pure black ebony could raise, but that the dwendling amount of ebony that there doesn't have to be destroyed (like it is) because it isn't pure black.

[DougC]

Oh does this topic open a lot of issues for me.
I think Bob Taylor is brave, thoughtful and practical in his decisions. I'm glad he is managing and owning the Ebony production in Cameroon.
One issue that bugs me is in seeing the consequence of making the sheer volume of guitars being produced per day. I'd like to know how many instruments with ebony fret boards are made collectively by Martin, Guild, Taylor, Collings, Gibson, Fender and Larrivee.

Another issue is something Bob said. Something to the effect of "we live in a different world and if you only knew how the rest of the world lives...".

[foldedpath]

If you noticed in the original post there is a link at the bottom to the Taylor website with more information. It talks there more about sustainability and how they have also partnered up with the environmental organization GreenWood Global. That's who's helping with the actual sustainability.

I followed those links, and this still seems like disingenuous marketing to me. On the Taylor page that's titled "Sustainability", the GreenWood Global outfit is mentioned, but Greenwood Global is only active in the Americas according to their web site. They have no projects in Africa:

http://www.greenwoodglobal.org/

Bob Taylor began that video on ebony by saying this:

"It's going to take a lot of intervention from us, as people around the world, to make sure that we continue to have these woods, and that for generations, they continue to be there."

That's a clear implication that he's about to talk about sustainable ebony. But nowhere in the video, or on the Taylor web site, or on the Greenwood web site, is anyone talking about reforesting and long-term conservation of ebony. What he's actually talking about is delaying the inevitable as long as possible, until it's all gone just like Brazilian Rosewood.

If that's the current situation and there's nothing else that can be done -- and I suspect that's the case, given the slow growth rate, disappearing habitat, and political/economic status of African countries -- then at least be honest about it. Don't promote it by dropping broad hints that it's an eco-friendly, sustainable approach. That's dishonest.

[Dobe]

Interesting Doug, I had the same thoughts on both of your points. One thing that immediately jumped out at the beginning of the video for me was : " you can almost count the number of Spruce trees that are left..." "....you can almost count when there might not be any left that are large"

Color me sceptical. Surely there are lots of large Spruce in this region ? :

[Bernie Daniel]

I'm not sure it's such a good thing. There is no discussion about sustainability or alternatives in the video, so what Bob Taylor is talking about is essentially duplicating the trajectory of Brazilian Rosewood. We're gonna maximize exploitation until it's all gone.

Moreover, the extraction process is being discussed as if there is no other impact on the forest. These are entire ecosystems affected when roads are cut into the forest for access to the trees. Other trees are cut to create draglines and paths; it's not just the impact on the valuable species. Any new road immediately creates incentives for further forest clearing for agriculture. I've seen this for myself in Brazil, Venezuela, and other Central and South American countries, years ago when I was working down there.

What steps are being taken by Taylor Guitars to promote alternative woods for fingerboards? Without a mitigating effort like that, I don't see that more efficient use of the resource is all that admirable. It's just a delaying tactic until the last trees are gone. Since Taylor has a near monopoly on supply, they'll be in a position to profit from the inevitable steep rise in price when the best true-black Ebony achieves Brazilian rosewood status. It may be good business tactics, but I'm just not feeling the warm eco-fuzzy vibe that Bob Taylor is trying to project in that video.

I think your points are good.

I thought the video by Bob Taylor was interesting and I thought he did a great thing by just saying let's start using less grades of the wood. But after that it was pretty much a self-serving effort and he stands to profit from his efforts -- no problem with that at all but its true.

I hope he is plowing some of his profits back into trying to find ways to encourage that government to see the value of sustaining the resource for future generations. Conservation, controlled harvesting, and a replanting programs are not necessarily a high priority in developing countries -- farming produces a much greater and immediate benefit. Likewise conservation requires a bold and determined political resolve as it is a long term proposition -- these trees grow slowly.

It is sad to see these sources of wood under such stress. Personally, I think every species should be preserved. Each species has a unique DNA that may code for valuable things (natural products, medicines etc.) that we'll never find once they are gone - that argument does not ring with everyone however.

It is increasingly obvious to all that the world has too many human beings and in the end I don't see a happy result not only for species of trees but all non-human wild species plant and animal.

Obviously for these developing countries the priority is food and jobs and who can blame them? We in North American cut down over 90% of our old growth forest before anyone with the power to act on it listened seriously to the calls for conservation. It took even more time before any real efforts were made. These countries are no different or more "irresponsible" than we were here

[Jim Nollman]

If it's true that ebony doesn't lend itself to plantation growing, you would think that such a critical fact would be accentuated in the video. Who's to say that Taylor has not made a strategic decision to avoid the development of plantation replenishment? Unless that happens, can we all agree that owning a monopoly on ebony gives the company a strategic advantage over other top tier guitar companies? Until we are given some explanation about the viability of ebony plantations, the above interpretation seems as valid as anything else I've read here. Indeed, businesses are never altruistic.

Actually, the argument against business altruism suggests that a company only acts unsustainably because its customers demand it. But if so, isn't it critical that businesses participate, at some meaningful level, in teaching customers that the next generation of guitars need to be constructed with something besides an endangered wood species? Or do we all throw up our hands and conclude that customers can't be taught such a thing? Mr Taylor would have made me feel a lot better about the future ebony supply, if he had told me that his company was also making a parallel effort to wean his customer base from ebony fingerboards.

We're all potential stringed instrument customers. How many of you reading this thread, would buy a mandolin with an ebony fretboard, if you also knew all the facts about the status of ebony as an endangered species? Now let me ask something slightly different. How many of you would buy that same mandolin, after watching the Taylor video? I suspect that no where near as many would desist, because the Taylor video makes it sound like the company is doing a good thing. I just don't see the good thing so clearly as others have expressed here.

As a side note, I also recall that Brazilian rosewood seemed to have completely disappeared from musical instruments about ten years ago. Now its back. Where did the new supply come from?

[Rob Grant]

Ebony (Diospyros) is a rather slow growing tree that seems to produce the best "black" wood when exposed to various stressful conditions like drought or insect attack. This is at least true with the three or four species that are found here in tropical north Queensland. I'd imagine that this would also be true with the species that Taylor talks about. We have available here in Queensland ebonies equivalent to those found in Africa, but not in sustainable or commercially viable quantities. The flitches I get for building my mandolins are usually obtained from storm damaged trees or trees which have died from fire, disease or insect attack.

I've grown several species of ebony from seed, and in my experience I don't believe the trees that give you a good black wood can be grown in a controlled, farm situation.

Here are a few photos of our local ebonies (used for sides on a mandola I built over ten years ago, a mature "dry" country tree, and a rainforest seedling I planted several years ago on my block...

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Sorry, but Bob Taylor's video gave me visions of post-apocalyptic, A-Boy-and-His-Dog scenarios, people living on a scorched Earth devoid of trees, happy to have an old coffee can to beat on or a bone whistle. The days of demanding a perfect ebony fingerboard to optimize durability, appearance, and tone will seem like the apex of short-sightedness and vanity then....

[peter.coombe]

I think there is a bit of mis-information in the video as well as mis-information in some of the posts. Firstly, Ebony is not endangered. Not one single species of Ebony is listed on CITES, so although it may be rare, it is not endangered. It certainly is true that commercial quantities of Ebony are no longer present in many countries that used to be sources of Ebony, so it has been over exploited, but it has not been over exploited to the extent Brazilian Rosewood has. Brazilian Rosewood is critically endangered - i.e. it is on the verge of extinction. The only country I know that has a sustainable source of Ebony (and rosewood) is India. The Indian government strictly controls the harvesting of Indian Ebony and Rosewood, and although the system is not perfect, it is about the best that exists at present. Some Indian Ebony and Rosewood is FSC certified, so it comes with a guarantee of sustainability. Diospyros melanoxylon is used for other purposes other than wood in India, so there is likely to be a (limited) continuing supply of that species effectively forever. Unfortunately the USA has made importation of Indian Ebony and Rosewood >6mm thick illegal, but the reason it is illegal is due to a paperwork dispute with India. Somewhat ironic when the only sustainable source becomes illegal!

As a side note, I also recall that Brazilian rosewood seemed to have completely disappeared from musical instruments about ten years ago. Now its back. Where did the new supply come from?

Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) certainly has become more common recently. Most of the source of supply is from old stumps that were cut before 1992 when it was CITES listed. The wood is stunningly beautiful, but most of it is flat sawn and unstable, so buyer beware. Other sources are from old stashes purchased before 1992. For example, I have some that was imported into Australia in the early 1980s, so although not CITES documented it is still legal if it remains in Australia.

[rgray]

So, 90% of the ebony to be available will be streaked. Where is the 10% of black ebony going - the very highest end instruments? If so, will those instrument prices increase even more simply for having the best ebony even though the price from the woodcutter is the same whether streaked or black?

[foldedpath]

I think there is a bit of mis-information in the video as well as mis-information in some of the posts. Firstly, Ebony is not endangered. Not one single species of Ebony is listed on CITES, so although it may be rare, it is not endangered.

CITES status isn't the only thing that matters when discussing these things, outside the narrow scope of what can be legally used.

If we're talking about Diospyros crassiflora (West African ebony), then it's listed as "endangered" status on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. The only status higher than that is "critically endangered" and then "extinct". Quoting from the species listing page on that site:

Red List Category & Criteria: Endangered A1d ver 2.3

Countries:
Native:
Cameroon; Central African Republic; Congo; Congo, The Democratic Republic of the; Gabon; Nigeria

Habitat and Ecology: Lowland rainforest.

Major Threat(s): Virtually all large trees of this species have been felled for the ebony wood, except perhaps in the most remote parts of its range.

So it's in the last phase of resource extraction, which is exactly the reason why there is a commercial move to maximize profit on the lower-grade wood.

[DougC]

It seems very clear to me that everyone on Mandolin Cafe loves wood.
I would like to do something about it.

For example I think we might send some sort of petition to Taylor and the others that they should do more. For example they could donate funds to sustainable conservation projects. i.e. I know of a violin shop that pays a tree planting organization for every instrument sold.

It is also very clear that the instrument making 'industry' will not change. The international efforts to conserve trees like CITES and ICUN and IPCI-usa are affirmative but they create a problems for exporting and travel. It is not perfect and we need to do better.


So tonight I am making a donation to ArborDay.org
And my 100+ year old Norway Maple has to be cut down. It is being made into usable lumber by a local organization called Wood from the Hood.

How about you?



http://www.arborday.org/shopping/donations/orderrfr.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES

http://www.ipci-usa.org/page3.html

[Will Kimble]

A powerful message, and nicely done. I am glad I watched the video.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[John Arnold]

Most of the source of supply is from old stumps that were cut before 1992 when it was CITES listed. The wood is stunningly beautiful, but most of it is flat sawn and unstable, so buyer beware.

On the contrary, most of the BR stumpwood I have seen is quartersawn, but wavy-grained. Some of it is definitely unstable, but not necessarily for the reason you mentioned.

Other sources are from old stashes purchased before 1992. For example, I have some that was imported into Australia in the early 1980s, so although not CITES documented it is still legal if it remains in Australia.

Nearly all the BR I have is pre-CITES, though I may not have documentation. I know that to be true because I have owned it that long.
There are two main reasons that BR availability has increased. Ebay became an outlet for the illicit suppliers in Brazil, though that has waned in the last couple of years. The other reason is because of price. A lot of the BR that was not sold because it was considered marginal has resurfaced because it is now bringing decent money.
I believe the same thing will happen with the ebony. An increase in the supply of mottled ebony will only drive up the price of the pure black grade.

It is possible to farm some of the valuable tropical species, but the quality of the farmed wood is not the same as that from wild trees. Indian rosewood is planted to shade tea plantations, and those trees produce 'Indian rosewood' that is frequently referred to as Sonokeling.

Ebony (Diospyros) is a rather slow growing tree that seems to produce the best "black" wood when exposed to various stressful conditions like drought or insect attack.

I have experimented with persimmon trees, in the effort to produce more black heartwood. The best way I have found to do this is to partially girdle the trunk. This allows the tree to live, but produce some dark wood on the side where the girdling was done.

[Mike Bunting]

I didn't hear any talk at all of planting/growing new ebony. Is this something that is being done... can be done? Perhaps there's just no longer enough environment to do that... anybody know what's going on with ebony cultivation?

That is the saddest part of it all.

[HoGo]

From the video I understand that the forest is still there... He mentions that cutters have to go 8 kilometers from road to find ebony trees. That implies they go into forest and pick just ebony trees. That would be perfect just to cut one tree and plant several small ones in the open place. Perhaps there are already some seedlings around the old tree to grow up.
Why Ebony is not Iin cites is perhaps bacause it is so widespread in several countries and trees are far apart so no one really knows how many are left. BR grew on very small area on the east coast and that has been devastated so it's pretty clear not much is left.
As far as farming of ebony, I believe it'll need some experimentation and research and we can find a way. Perhaps first generation won't be perfect but next... We can produce diamonds and other precious things... so why not ebony.

[Jeffff]

Because musicians are a traditional bunch by and large. Not too many folks are ready for a synthetic fretboard on their mandolins or guitars. If you ask an acoustic guitar player what a guitar is made of the vast majority will tell you, spruce, rosewood or mahogany and ebony. For guitars maple has a small following, walnut even smaller. Cherry never really got a chance.

I see some people accusing Bob Taylor of questionable motives. How many will order a mandolin with a synthetic fretboard? Better yet, how man will buy a Mix?

[NG53]

Research into the autecology of significant rainforest tree species is sadly missing in all parts of the world because of misplaced priorities for research in the first world. We need to provide incentives for sustainable forest management in the third world, including research done by local people to make sustainable forest prouction a reality. In fact a levy should be put on every instrument that is made from rare or endangered hardwood species. Alternatively plantation grown hardwoods should be a must for instrument makers.