1930s Gretsch Model 240 Tenor Guitar

[Ed Goist]

I saw this old girl on the ebay, and she spoke to me...
I should have her by the end of next week.

Her Mojo instantly appealed to me, and the following model description (which I found in an on-line image of Gretsch's 1936 archtop guitar sales catalog) pretty much sealed the deal!

From the Fred. Gretsch Mfg. Co. Carved-Top Guitars brochure c.1936
Gretsch Carved Top Orchestra Tenor Guitar
The Gretsch American Orchestra Model 240 Tenor Guitar
Four-string Tenor Guitar, Auditorium-Special size body. Arched top, hand carved from old seasoned 'cello spruce and graduated for tone. Arched body and sides of flamed maple; 3-piece maple neck, steel-reinforced. Shaded from dark edges to amber sun-burst; hand polished. The edges of the body, both top and back, are ivory-celluloid bound. Oval ebony fingerboard with 23-inch professional scale; wide round frets. Self adjusting tailpiece; ebony adjustable bridge; professional type geared patent pegs with ivory-celluloid buttons. An instrument of great tonal power and brilliance.
(I'm very impressed by how forward thinking Gretsch was in the 30s when it comes to what are still considered "modern" playability features like a radiused ("oval") fretboard and wide, round frets!)

Also, here is a cool page dedicated to this model.

I'm sure I'll need to put some work into her to get her singing, but this should be fun!

Anyways, has anyone owned or played one of these? Thoughts?

[Charles E.]

Ed, you pulled the trigger!!!! I have been looking at that on a regular basis, what a cool old gal, she needs a good home. Congratulations!

[Rodney Riley]

Wow, Ed. COOL!!! Would like to try a Tenor. Wish list so far is for a Boat Paddle Uke, Resonator of some sort and a tenor. Make that ol' girl sing.

[Jayyj]

Ed, I have the same guitar! I've always thought of it as a model 35 - I didn't realise it was a distinct model. Mine has a Fishman mandolin pickup installed and gets used as my touring acoustic. The tuners are horrible, two to one gear ratio same as the old Gibson tenors. The A string is a little dull on mine but otherwise it sounds great, very full and chimey.

[Ed Goist]

Hi Jayyj; Thanks very much for the report - Very cool.

Apparently due to the popularity of tenor guitars in the 30s, there are several existing examples of non-Model 240 Gretsch tenors out there that were special orders of their other models. However, a 240 can be identified by a few distinct features:
"The presence of the violin finish, dot fretboard markers and the scroll headstock logo are important to accurately identifying a model 240."

Two-to-one reverse tuners...Ouch! I have a friend locally whom I just found out (over the past year) is also a tenor guitar player and collector (she owns 8)! She's been assisting me with my archtop search, and when I told her I found and was considering this Gretsch, she basically insisted that I get it! (saying they are as good as any vintage archtops out there). However, she also warned me about the tuners. Here's an excerpt from our e-mail exchange:
"...You might want to get a set of repro Grovers from Stewart-Macdonald for ease of playing. Hold on to the originals for reselling the guitar, if you want later. That's what I did with my 31 Martin archtop tenor..."

Oh, and the bridge on mine is not original. Hence, I may consider a wider, custom-built bridge down the road (hey, "a bridge down the road!", get it? ), but now I just want to get her, have my tech give her a good once-over getting the action down to a reasonable height, and get to know her. Baby steps.

[Charles E.]

Ed, DeArmond floating Mandolin-tenor guitar pickups come up pretty often on eBay. That in combo with a vintage tube amp will knock your socks off. As to the tuners, I have used Waverly banjo tuners from Stew Mac on a couple of instruments and am quite happy with them. I think they look better then others too.

[Ed Goist]

Jayyj; what case is your Gretsch 240 in?
If you're using a non-original case, I'd love a recommendation.
Mine will arrive with no case.
Oh, if anyone else would like to offer case/gigbag recommendations, the dimensions of the 240 are:
Lower Bout: 16"
Length: 38 1/2"
body depth: 3 1/2"
Thanks.

[Jayyj]

I use a modern Epiphone case for it - I think it's intended as a full depth archtop case for a Broadway or Emperor or something. Fits it pretty snugly anyway and it's good quality.

[Jayyj]

The one that came with it could well have been original but it was one of those awful flexible vinyl covered cardboard things. Not recommended for anything really, although I once gave several of them away to a theatre company on the condition they never used them to actually carry a guitar in...

[Jayyj]

Grapped a quick shot of mine today:

[Ed Goist]

What a beauty! Congrats.
Thanks for posting.

[Charles E.]

Hey, Ed. Do you have in your hands yet? If so how is she?

Charley

[Rvl]

Can you post a link to the tuners?
I have an old Regal Dobro tenor and the tuners are terrible
I asked at a repair shop and they said the old tuners are a different size hole , and the bushing is inset whereas most bushings are flat on the headstock

Thanks

Robert

PS good catch on that Gretsch ,I was looking at that too

[Ed Goist]

Hey, Ed. Do you have in your hands yet? If so how is she?

Charley

Hi Charley:

The tenor arrived today in fine order! Hats off to my ebay seller who was exceptional - Prompt, professional, and thoughtful (he included a case and strings even though they were not in the listing!) I gave him well-deserved maximum positive feedback!

Well, to the Gretsch. Some initial impressions:
*This instrument greatly exceeds my expectations.
* What an incredibly cool and beautiful instrument! Photos never seem to properly capture that old instrument look.
* I was surprised how comfortable I was with the neck profile, and the general feel of the instrument.
* I was pleasantly surprised that the tuners on mine seem to stay in tune relatively well.
* This tenor sounds vastly different from my flat-top Blueridge. This is exactly what I was looking for.
* Although I've recently made the decision to keep all my tenors in GDAE, this one sounds so sweet in CGDA that I'm now reconsidering when it comes to this one!
On the downside:
* This instrument badly needs a set-up. There is a relatively new (fairly nice) after-market Rosewood bridge on it which is way to high (even with the wheels all the way down). It will need to be shaved (?) to get a decent action. Also, the bridge is poorly positioned, and the intonation is badly off.
* The seam crack on the front seems to be stable, but I want a tech to look at it ASAP.

Overall, I'd say this is a super-cool instrument with great Mojo, and one I'm not at all opposed to spending some money on to get up to speed!

Oh, and Rvl, Elderly has a great selection of banjo pegs, including the Waverlys. You can see their entire selection here (NFI)

So, here is a quick video I made of the Gretsch after spending a couple of hours with her tonight. Please forgive the playing, as the action is way higher than I'm used to. Also, please forgive the audio & video quality as this is shot with a stock Dell webcam. Despite all this, I do hope this gives you some idea of how great she sounds!

[Dan Hoover]

very envious..in a nice round bout way...if your looking for someone to do set up/repairs,or info,and there's none in your area..i know a guy who is very heavy into gretsch's..here's a link if ok? http://midstateguitars.com/ might be of help.for parts or info...cheers..

[Charles E.]

Ed, that sounds great. Very clear and punchy. I sounds better then a Gibson arch top I had for many years. With a set up its only going to get better! Congrats.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks very much Dan & Charley!
Dan, that Midstate Guitars site is very impressive. Thanks for the link. Fortunately, it turns out that friend I mentioned above who owns eight vintage tenors also knows a local repair tech whom she recommends very highly. I have a call into him about a set-up and the crack in the top.
It's beautiful here today, so I headed outside with the Gretsch - Here are some pics of her (now officially named 'Lenore') taken on this Sunny Saturday morning in June here in northeast Ohio.

[Ed Goist]

Been spending lots on time with the new acquisition this weekend and just loving her.
Can't wait to get a good set-up for her.
Although I very much appreciate the new, light D'Addario Tenor Guitar strings (32-22-14-10) the seller put on her before shipping (especially since the action is so high), I can't help but think this old girl would really come alive tuned GDAE. I'm thinking that the larger sound box on the Gretsch would really respond well and boom in the lower register. The light strings in CGDA almost seem overly "dainty" for the instrument's frame. I'm now thinking I want to have the set-up done for GDAE (42-30-20-13) tuning.
Jayyj, how do you have yours tuned? String gauges? Thanks.

[Jayyj]

Glad you're getting on well with it! It looks great in the photos.

At the moment, just to be awkward, I'm beginning to favour BbFCG for my default tenor tuning. I can get standard tenor tuning with a capo at the second fret. A lot of the time I'm in CGCG or CGDG, and taking that top string back up to A means always running the risk of snapping strings mid gig. I use 34-24-15-09 as my string guages, although might go back up to 10 for the top string.

With regards string guages for GDAE tuning, I suspect you could probably go heavier than the guages you suggest if you wanted to. Roger at Fylde guitars sets his tenors up for GDAE as standard and I'm pretty sure the bottom string is a 52 or 54. His tenors are incredibly ballsy sounding instruments and given the Gretsch is adapted from a six string design it may well really come to life with heavy strings. 42 sounds a little on the light side to drive an archtop. Guess it would depend on the stiffness of the neck, as there's no truss rod.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has done a proper comparison on the tension in lbs of different tenor tuning and string guages.

[Ed Goist]

Hi Jayyj; thank for the reply and the information.

I initially tried 42-30-20-13 gauges on my tenor for GDAE because that was suggested to me, and because they are the gauges that are used in the Pearse tenor guitar set made for GDAE tuning. Also, it's 'in the ballpark' for the gauges suggested on the fine 'Tenor Guitar String-Tuning & Gauges Chart' on the Ry Cooder dot nl site. Looking at that chart now, I see what you mean about maybe going heavier on the G string. However, I really like the sound and feel of 42-30-20-13 on my Blueridge.

I've used the McDonald String tension calculator to determine the tension differences between common string gauges used for CGDA and GDAE. Here's a comparison of the D'Addario set and the strings I use for GDAE (singles from D'Addario):

CGDA / GDAE string and tension comparison:
32W-22W-14-10 on 23 in     42W-30W-20-13 on 23 in
C: 19.38 #                     G: 18.39 #
G: 25.92 #                     D: 21.45 #
D: 20.35 #                     A: 24.02 # (19 gauge = 21.96 #)
A: 23.72 #                     E: 21.63 #
total: 89.37 #                 85.49 #

* I found it very interesting that the larger gauge strings in GDAE actually cause less tension than the D'Addario set.
* I just used the McDonald to calculate that using a 44W on the G string would result in 20.59 # of tension on that string. Using this, and a 19 on the A string, would make the tension across all the strings almost the same (+/- 1.5 # of each other).

[Rvl]

Mine are all in the plectrum range
I have 2 archtop guitars strung up with 4 and 5 strings and 2 flattops 4 strings
I find the flattops dont like high tension but the archtops do
But mine all have longer scales
63cm(24.8")for the 2 flattops with pin bridges and the archtops are 25.4"
The archtops are Low CGDA and Low CGDAE and the flattops are FCGD
And my plectrum banjo is GDAE

I recommend trying tuning up a half step and see how the guitar top responds and sounds
Does the guitar sound better?Is the neck ok?
I usually keep it strung up for a week or more just to be safe
Then try another half step up
You might break a string on the second half step
Run the results through McDonalds string calculator

I think you will probably end up with some heavy strings on the archtop
But try it out........life is a journey

Thanks

Robert VanLane

[Jayyj]

Ed, thanks for doing the comparison chart, interesting reading. I'm actually surprised how close the two sets are in tension - I was expecting the C setup to be significantly higher. Guess I'm just truamatised by the number of high As I've had snap on me...

[Ed Goist]

I just got 'Lenore' back from the tech and am quite pleased.

Here's a rundown of the work done:
* Clean & glue center seam
* Install cleats on underside of seam
* Lower bridge height & action
* Check, lube and tighten tuning machines
* Playset in GDAE with D'Addario PB 42W-30W-20-13

Man, she sounds awesome! The GDAE tuning was definitely the way to go. She sounds full and rich, and the G string is noticeably less "boomy" than the one on my Blueridge (same gauges).

The tech could not get the action quite as low as we wanted, as he did not want to take any more off the bridge for fear it would affect the tone. However, she's now quite playable, and the tone is just amazing.

Thankfully, the GDAE tuning on a 23" scale with these gauges makes for low string tension, and the higher action is MUCH less of an issue than it would be on a mandolin, or even on a 6-string guitar.

I'll record a clip as soon as I can get my webcam to behave.

I'm very happy!