Working with a cheap mandolin without a profesional setup?

[mondayortuesday]

Hello everyone — I'm a first-time poster! I love this forum.

I had a few questions about how to work with a cheap mandolin without getting the mandolin set up professionally. This has a lot to do with how the setup might cost more than half of what I paid for the mandolin ($70) — because the instrument is so cheap, I thought I might try setting it up myself to see how I can improve the mandolin's sound / playability while learning a bit about the instrument before I decide to go in and upgrade to a better sounding / playing mandolin.

I primarily play guitar, but about three years ago I started playing a friend's mandolin and ended up going to a music store and picked up one of the cheapest mandolins there — a Rover RM-25 with laminate top. I ended up playing a bunch of music with it for about a year, but for the last two years it's been sitting in its case. I recently got back to playing mandolin, but it's frustrating to work with an instrument that's difficult to play.

The action on the mandolin is pretty high and I haven't changed the strings at all since I bought the mandolin (I was thinking that a string change might be in order). Playing barre chords on the first and second frets is difficult without a ton of pressure. And even after tuning, the G strings don't sound in tune with the rest of the strings when I play a scale (they sound pretty flat).

I'm certainly no luthier, and I've never really played around with instruments on a fix-it or take-it-apart level before. I figure that if I change the strings (I'm going to pick up D'Addario J74s) and adjust the action by tweaking the bridge screws, I'll probably have to re-intonate the mandolin (and I'm not sure how difficult re-intonating a mandolin will be, so any advice would be greatly appreciated).

Do any of you have any advice on how to work with this cheap mandolin to get it to play and sound better? It might be best to get a professional setup, but the only instrument place I can think of near me is Guitar Center, and I've read to steer clear of places that don't specialize in mandolins. I figure a DIY approach might be good.

Thanks in advance!

Whit

[Bill Snyder]

PM forum member robster and ask for a copy of his set-up manual. It should be a pretty good starting point.

[Fretbear]

Get yourself some low-tack blue painters tape or even just some regular masking tape that you have stuck to your jeans a few times to reduce it's grab. Run a piece of tape onto the top of the mandolin, right along the side of the bridge that faces the neck. This will mark that present bridge location and allow to you to easily know if you have moved back from it or allow you to return to it. To know if your nut action needs to be lowered, press down a string at the third fret, and check if there is any space between that string and the first fret, if there is any more than just the tiniest amount (almost none) then the answer is yes. You can lower the nut action string by string with a fine file, or all of them at once by removing the nut and sanding the bottom; it takes practice, and if you go too far the strings will begin to buzz. There is no substitute for practice, but the nut is likely so cheap that it will be no great tragedy if it does end up require replacing.

[Tim2723]

Hi Whit and welcome!

It sounds like you've already got a good handle on things. I wouldn't spend $150 to set up a $75 mandolin either, but there are a LOT of things you can do yourself. Start with new strings and get the bridge height and location correct for intonation. Working on the nut takes patience and practice, but like Fretbear said it's not hard and it's no tragedy if you mess up. Take Bill's advice and get robster's set up manual. It covers everything you'll need at this stage. Even if you end up with a disaster you'll have learned $75 worth of experience.

[Jim Garber]

This has a lot to do with how the setup might cost more than half of what I paid for the mandolin ($70)

I don't know if you worked on your guitars, but if you can get a decent set up for $35 that is a real deal IMHO. Unless you are really excited about learning how to do your own setups I have a feeling that your time spent trying to figure it all out might be better spent playing a decently pro set up instrument. You have to figure out what your time is worth to you, regardless of what you spent on the mandolin. If you spent $140 for the mandolin would you then have it professionally done? Or would it have to be a $500 one or a $1000 one.

Then again, there is nothing wrong with trying if you are so inclined.

[Tim2723]

I think Jim brings up a good point that newcomers to the mandolin need to understand. Whether it's a $70 import or a $70,000 masterpiece, all mandolins need to be set up. But then again, we all have to watch our pennies sometimes, and there's a lot of simple adjustments that you can make yourself. Indeed, a couple of them, like adjusting the bridge, are important to learn because they are just part of owning a mandolin.

[Timmando]

I agree that it is worth having someone set it up...but...alot of guys who are not mandolin players will probably not set it up like a mandolin should be setup. Make sure he knows mandolins, not just guitars. A good setup could turn a $70 mandolin into a playable instrument...put a K&K pickup in it and you may have all you need for a while longer. A good setup to me MUST include a nut adjustment that brings the strings so close to the first fret that you can hardly see a space underneath...and a pretty low action at the 12th fret. With a pickup on it you won't need to play it hard and a low action everywhere is what I consider a playable mandolin...IMHO...

[Fretbear]

If it was a simple as just dropping it off with someone local who was actually experienced with mandolin set-up (not just a guitar tech who says that he is) and that you could trust to do a good job and not take you to the cleaners, then that would be one thing; my experience is that it is often not the case. Obviously if you have a valuable instrument and no inclination or ability to do your own set-up work, that is another matter.

[Jim Garber]

Perhaps the best thing would be for Whit (the OP) to tell us where he lives and maybe there is someone mandolin-qualified nearby who we can recommend.

OTOH which would you rather have on your $70 mandolin: a setup done by someone who mainly understands guitars for $35 or one done by someone who has no clue at all how to deal with action, intonation, nuts and bridges for free and may end up costing even more in the long run.

On the third hand would you spend even more money for a quality mandolin luthier to do the setup and maybe double the price of the instrument.

On the 4th hand: buy yourself and fully set up upgraded mandolin from a decent dealer who stands by his/her setups etc. But now we are talking about a different thing altogether and I may have run out of hands.

[rgray]

My first mandolin was a Morgan Monroe Bean Blossom for $65 off EBay and it nearly made my fingers bleed. I did a basic setup myself (restring, bridge placement, and nut filing). I actually had to replace the nut which was no problem. Some good references are The Mandolin Owner's Guide for general mandolin maintenance. For bridge placement, check out this site.

DISCLAIMER: I only willingly did this due to the cheap price of the mandolin and an opportunity to learn. All other mandolins I have owned since have gone to a local luthier for a professional setup. All I will do now is change strings and make minor bridge adjustments (move for intonation or raise/lower for string height).

[EdHanrahan]

Folks get hung up on not spending more for a setup than the price of their "economy-level" mandolin (like my Rover RM-35S beater). But that's the wrong mindset. Let's compare it to:

"Hey, I just bought a running car for $50, but it needs gas. I'm not gonna spend more on gas than I paid for the car." Thus, a lawn ornament is born.

Just like gas costs no different for a junker than for a Ferrari, think of set-up as a consumable part of ownership. You'll pay the same regardless of underlying cost or quality. But it's way less risk, and LOTS more fun, to do the work yourself when the consequences (like total failure) are limited by a low initial investment.

From a different viewpoint: Most ultra-low price instruments are such BECAUSE the builder didn't bother with setup; now it's time to pay for completing the instrument or, my preference, complete it yourself.

[Tim2723]

I think too that there's difference between getting a beginner's level starter instrument into basic playing condition versus fine-tuning a professional's instrument to the ultimate optimal conditions. I'd put gas in a $50 car, but I wouldn't drop five grand on it, I'd go buy a $5000 car that was better to start with.

[CES]

Check out Frank Ford's site, frets.com, for further info/instruction as well. I'm fortunate to have a guy locally who does a good bit of "folk instrument" work and knows how to set up mandos...he's also very reasonable price-wise. So, with my better instruments I just let him handle it. When I got my Mandobird, however (for about 50 bucks more than your Rover, incidentally), I chose to do the set-up myself, as it only needed the action lowered at the nut and the intonation set at the bridge. I got some torch cleaners for < 5 bucks at Home Depot for the nut and followed the frets.com instructions, and filed SLOWLY. I'm very happy with the results, though it took a bit longer with those flimsy torch cleaners than it would have with a set of nut files.

I think this information is useful to know, because it will help you understand what luthiers are charging you for (often their knowledge and tool base more than the labor with basic set-up work), but also help you understand what set-up you like, and how to convey that to someone else working on your instruments. After doing even a little set-up work myself, I've learned that the few bucks my guy charges me is well worth it from a time standpoint, but it's also cheaper for me than having to upgrade my tools.

If you screw up the nut, then you're out the price of a replacement from Stew-Mac (pretty inexpensive, and probably an upgrade from the nut on your Rover) and the time it'll take to learn how to replace a nut (or the cost to have someone do it), but if you're careful, this shouldn't happen.

Good luck, and welcome!

[mondayortuesday]

Thanks for all of the responses! You've all been a great help.

After reading your advice, I think I'll go ahead and change the strings on my mandolin with the D'Addarios and see if I can re-set the intonation at the bridge myself (and I'll definitely make sure, with Fretbear's advice, to keep some kind of marker on the mandolin to let me know where the bridge originally was). My bridge has little screws in it to lower the action on that end, and it looks like there's a little bit more I can adjust to get the bridge action a bit lower. I figure that because changing the strings / adjusting intonation is a pretty standard activity that comes with owning a mandolin, I'll definitely do this.

As for the nut, it looks like the nut action does need to be lowered. I checked the nut action with Fretbear's advice, and it turns out that when I push on the strings on the third fret there's at least a millimeter of space between the first fret and all of the strings, so my nut action needs to be lowered for every string. I don't think I'm going to mess around with the nut yet, though, and first see if I can find a mandolin luthier in my area to help me set that up.

Which brings me to my next question (thanks Jim Garber): Do you know of any good or experienced mandolin luthiers in the Central New York area? I live in Syracuse, and it's a close drive to Ithaca, and a bit further of a drive to Buffalo and Rochester.

You've all been pretty persuasive about set-up being an important addition to the cost of a mandolin (like Ed Hanrahan's gas analogy), so I'd like to see if I can get a professional to do a set-up and see how much that will cost. Ultimately, though, I suppose that filing down the nut myself wouldn't be an unwelcome challenge — if it comes to that, I'll probably see if I can take out the nut and sand the whole thing down, little by little (and either way I'll PM Robster about his manual — I'm looking forward to checking it out).

Ultimately, I'd really like to get a better quality mandolin (solid wood top and sides, maybe hand-carved, as I've heard hand-carved is a thing to look out for) in the $200 - $500 range. I've been drooling over the mandolins at TheMandolinStore.com, as I've heard that they also do a decent set-up for the mandolins before they ship the instrument out to you. I've heard a lot of good things about the Loar LM-520 and the Rover RM-75 (which are, incidentally, both F-style mandolins) and I've had my eye on them for a bit. I'd like to see if I can get my Rover RM-25 in working order before I decide to make any purchases, though. Do any of you have any advice for upgrading to a solid-wood mandolin after having a cheap laminate one?

Thanks again!

Whit

[Tim2723]

Just outside Greece is a place called (I think) the Guitar Museum, or something like that. You'll find them in the phone book easily enough, even if I'm just close with the name. A little west of Rochester, not as far as Buffalo. They deal in all kinds of folk instruments and have a heck of a collection. The last time I was there - about ten years ago - they had three bass mandolins! You don' see that every day, I'll tell you what. I'm sure they can either help you or point you to someone who can. At least worth a phone call.

[robster]

Hi Whit,
I just replied to your PM. Thank you to the others who referred you to me. My free ebook will show you how to use automotive feeler gauges (you can buy a set for under ten dollars at any auto parts store, Walmart, etc) to accurately measure string clearances in order to then adjust the nut height and bridge/saddle height. You will use the same feeler gauges to make your own nut saws to lower the nut slots.
After that you'll learn how to lower the bridge/saddle to optimal height, and then how to intonate the mandolin. After all of that you put your new strings on.
You will learn a lot, and if you are like me you will then adapt some of the techniques to test and adjust your guitar(s).
It will take a couple of hours on your first mandolin and I think you will be very happy with the playability of your mandolin.
Do a YouTube search on "rogue mandolin set up" to see some before and after videos I made. Yes, even a fifty dollar mandolin can be made to play well!
The ebook is free to all interested mandolincafe members. Please email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com and I will send you the book.
Please don't pm me here, as I can't send the ebook through a pm.
Thanks -- Rob

[JeffD]

Which brings me to my next question : Do you know of any good or experienced mandolin luthiers in the Central New York area? I live in Syracuse, and it's a close drive to Ithaca, and a bit further of a drive to Buffalo and Rochester.

Guitar Works in Ithaca in the DeWitt Mall is where I go to get my mandolins set up. They are great.

[JeffD]

I had a few questions about how to work with a cheap mandolin without getting the mandolin set up professionally. This has a lot to do with how the setup might cost more than half of what I paid for the mandolin ($70)

I dunno. A mandolin is going to cost you some money. I did a blog on this. Even a free mandolin might be no bargain.


Like they say, there is no such thing as a free puppy. (And with the cost of pills and shots and spaying and boarding, not to mention feeding, not to mention kennels and beds and dog dishes, there is no way I can afford a free puppy.)

[bmac]

Like you I am a cheapskate and refuse to pay for what I think (rightly or worngly) I can do myself.

frets.com has all the settup information you need. Give it a whack.... You have very little to lose and lots to gain. on most cheap new mandolins the settup can't get much worse!!! make sure yu have one or two new sets of strings.

[Paul Busman]

Let me add my voice to the people who recommend trying a setup yourself. Apart from possibly ruining the nut, you really are not likely to do anything seriously wrong and a nut is easily replaced/upgraded. In the process, you'll learn a LOT about the mandolin and what makes it sing.
Yes, mark the feet of the bridge with blue masking tape when you change the strings, but don't be afraid to tinker a bit with the intonation despite what the tape says. Your intonation may be off now, and it may change once you alter the nut and/or bridge height and strings.
New strings without addressing the nut height won't really help a lot. As long as those strings are off, see if you can't tap the nut out and reduce the height by filing and/or sanding the bottom to get the action roughly correct. Then use files or gas torch tip cleaners to fine tune the strings individually.
You may find that your well setup cheapie keeps you happy for a long time. If not, keep it as a beater to take on picnics, to the beach, etc. when you upgrade.

[bmac]

The nut asdjustment is the one which will be of greatest benefit for ease of playing and intonation... but of course the bridge is important too. but without a proper nut, everything is not quite right tone wise and comfort wise.

[Jim]

I too would do it myself, No better instrument to experiment on than your $70 one except maybe my $19 one which has great action and intonation because at it's low price I was willing to mess with it until it got better or I broke it. I've used the skills I got from that first one to setup many since and have come to really enjoy the process.