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Thread: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

  1. #26
    Highly Lonesome Marty Henrickson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian
    The OP doesn't give any info (playing level, genres, electric or acoustic) regarding either instrument, so the question is devoid of context.
    Absolutely right!

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I was thinking the OP is a fingerstyle player (where the guitar really shines)
    Well, I assumed the OP was a flatpicker. We could both be wrong, I suppose.
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    Registered User Barbara Shultz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    My curiosity runs the other way. I am first and foremost a mandolin player, and I rarely play rhythm, I play melody on mostly Irish Traditional/fiddle tunes. I have a guitar and sometimes I pick it up, and pick out the melodies on the guitar. I realize the difference in the left hand fingering and such, what I'm curious about, is if I can hold my pick the same way, and use the same ideas on pick direction and wrist movement, when picking melodies on the guitar, as i do on the mando?

  3. #28
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara Shultz View Post
    My curiosity runs the other way. I am first and foremost a mandolin player, and I rarely play rhythm, I play melody on mostly Irish Traditional/fiddle tunes. I have a guitar and sometimes I pick it up, and pick out the melodies on the guitar. I realize the difference in the left hand fingering and such, what I'm curious about, is if I can hold my pick the same way, and use the same ideas on pick direction and wrist movement, when picking melodies on the guitar, as i do on the mando?
    It depends. "Guitar" music covers a huge range, even if it's just limited to acoustic guitar styles played with a flatpick. You've got Bluegrass picking, Country Blues, Gypsy Jazz, Trad Jazz comping, Irish backing.... they all have different picking styles and techniques.

    As an example from a genre you're familiar with: Take a look at any YouTube videos of John Doyle doing the instrumental bits in his solo act, where he flatpicks Irish fiddle tunes in single note melody style, complete with treble ornaments. That's almost a direct translation of the technique you know on mandolin, although with a lot more left hand gymnastics because the guitar isn't as well-suited for this approach. But if you wanted to back an Irish trad session the way John and many other Irish trad backers do it on guitar, that brings in a totally different style of aggressive strumming and selective muting.

    That said, you already have an advantage in being comfortable with a flatpick in your hand. The steeper learning curve would be if you wanted to play, say, O'Carolan fingerstyle arrangements on guitar. Fingerstyle isn't that hard to learn, and you might want to incorporate that as part of being a well-rounded guitar player, but it does take some time.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    Welcome to the Cafe Mike.
    Given the popularity of the guitar most of us were familiar with them before playing our first mandolin. My suggestion is to either get an instructor/training CD, etc. to help you get started right from the beginning. The biggest thing for me was that with guitars one tends to hold the left hand perpendicular to the neck often with the thumb behind the neck. Playing a mandolin like this is not only more difficult it often causes cramping in your fretting hand. The correct way keeps the fingers moving in a more diagonal direction with the fleshy area between the thumb and forefinger supporting the neck. This is the only difference that can cause physical hand damage and related problems later. Everything else is just a matter of how you want to sound and the style and technique required to produce it.
    The fretting hand should not support the neck at all. The area of contact is the outer joint of the thumb and the root of the index.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    "Fingerstyle isn't that hard to learn,"

    Speak for yourself! It's pretty difficult when I try and learn it!

  6. #31
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Thank you Ralph. Well said, the point being in the beginning this seems like a small thing until your hand starts giving you grief.

  7. #32
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    I think a lot of these suggestions about playing the instrument to sound a certain way comes from the folks that play in either Old time or Bluegrass groups or playing circles. These groups tend to stick to tradition and the way that sounds. Others of us may differ in our opinions because we are on the outside of that box and convention. The diversity Artist like Niles and the rest of the world give us is one of the reason this site is so helpful to so many.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    . Fingerstyle isn't that hard to learn, and you might want to incorporate that as part of being a well-rounded guitar player, but it does take some time.
    What type of fingerstyle? In the classical idiom the right hand comprises vast expressive capacity--akin to the violin bow; technique can accomodate as much time as one wishes cultivating and "learning." In flamenco, even more. It's necessary to clarify what type of guitar we are talking about, because some fingerstyle approaches are more akin with playing piano than flatpicking folk instruments--a world of difference

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    What type of guitar?

  9. #34
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Wow if I was Mike (the OP) I'd stay the heck away from the mandolin now!

  10. #35

    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    ... say, O'Carolan fingerstyle arrangements on guitar. Fingerstyle isn't that hard to learn, and you might want to incorporate that as part of being a well-rounded guitar player, but it does take some time.
    Oops, sorry...didn't read your entire post--only saw what Trevor had responded to

    Well, while not quite "classical," flamenco, or Pierre Bensusan...beginning fingerstyle for a flatpicker--or someone with no fingerstyle experience--is a total other approach for the right hand, and may be quite challenging for some to get started. I think it's difficult to say categorically that "it's not that diffcult to learn" as it requires much more coordination both physical and mental--dexterous, rhythmic--up front in the learning process

    I tend to view advanced fingerstyle guitar and other fingerstyle and bowed stringed instruments as a wholely different instrument than flatpicking any stringed instrument

  11. #36
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    OK this is going to be controversial. I am likely to step on some someone's sacred cow. I hope nobody gets their nose out of joint. At the same time I hope for some interesting discusson.

    Steve Earle. I think he is a great musician and I love his take on traditional music. I think Copper Head Road and Galway Girl are really models on one way of bringing tradition to a larger audience. But his mandolin...

    I just watched, (for the 2435 time think) his video with Sharon Shannon doing Galway Girl live. I love that piece. But here is what I notice:

    The whistle is doing whistle things, iconic stuff that is best (if not only) done with a whistle.
    Accordion, fiddle guitars, drums all the same.

    But that mandolin is not doing anything you need a mandolin for. I mean, its good, it supports the music and is appropriate and I love the song, but its like a token mandolin. A guitar, any guitar but perhaps especially a Nashville soprano tuned guitar would be just exacly as effective.

    The mandolin playing contributes to the music, of course it does, but it doesn't contribute anything mandolinny. The fact of its being a mandolin is irrelevant. Its not being asked to do anything a mandolin is especially good at.

    I tred carefully because I know a lot of Steve Earle fans, an indeed I am one at times, even on this paticular tune. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about going from guitar to mandolin. Why bother if that's all you are going to do?
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  12. #37
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Nicely stated, Jeff, and I agree with your observations and caveats. But...
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    ... we are not talking about that. We are talking about going from guitar to mandolin. Why bother if that's all you are going to do?
    Yeah but... You're observing Earle's mandolin externally, as a listener, whereas each of us players is actually seeing it from the inside, rising to the challenge and reward of mastering a new instrument regardless of whatever subtleties or style we might apply. At some point, even just 2-finger chord strumming is good enough, and is step on the way to one's eventual "style".

    My internal viewpoint is that it's rewarding to find a contributing voice among a mix of instruments, and not have to blend in with the 8+ other guitars in the jam. Even before mandolin, I enjoyed playing a 12-string way up the neck, doing chop chords and tremolo. (Yikes! Rather than the dreaded opposite, I suspect that my own guitar playing has migrated to sound even more like mandolin.)

    YMMV!
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  13. #38

    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?



    Sorry to stray...just had to...the vid is poor and maestro so elegant it's tempting to think this effortless, but it's magic

  14. #39
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    But that mandolin is not doing anything you need a mandolin for. I mean, its good, it supports the music and is appropriate and I love the song, but its like a token mandolin. A guitar, any guitar but perhaps especially a Nashville soprano tuned guitar would be just exacly as effective.
    Yeah....that reminds me of "Can white men play the blues?"

    Yeah boy - Doc Watson should have learned the fiddle if he wanted to play fiddle tunes.

    And to the ghost of Clarence White... "If you're gonna play pedal steel licks, you should be doing it on a pedal steel." And Ian Anderson should have learned to play flute like a classical flautist, instead of doing blues harp/guitar licks and listening to Roland Kirk.

    And note to WSM.....if you want to play blues licks....you should have swapped instruments with your brother Charlie. Oh yes....and you should have also been born black.

    = = = = = = =
    and another afterthought...... But, if had been Tim O'Brien playing the same type stuff on mandolin on "Galway Girl" .......... priceless!!!

  15. #40
    Registered User Elliot Luber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Begin by exploiting the similaries so you can hit the ground playing, but the sooner you realize that it isn't a little guitar the better off you will be. The similarities will jump start you, but you really want to grasp the mandolin's nuance. It's easy to play but difficult to master.

  16. #41
    man about town Markus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Jeff, I hear you. My question back is: does the mandolin not serve the tune?

    I think we both musically attempt to do what the tune asks, not our desire for a hot break/spotlight/etc. I would think Steve would argue that the mandolin is doing exactly that.

    It might not be doing anything mandolin-like, but does it function the higher function of serving the tune? That's my take on Earle's mandolin sometimes - it's not that it's doing anything that requires mandolin technique, but the sound of the mandolin and the way the mando chords flow `does it' for the tune. See Little Emperor on his newest album - it's strummed mandolin, but the way chords fit/sound IS much different than that on guitar. [ala Copperhead Road]

    It's a paint color for him, mandolin chords often have skipped chord tones and those `gaps' leave space for other things to fit. Perhaps he could get similar chord composition [those exact notes making up the chord] by a Tenor Guitar or specifically tuned normal guitar and capo it up ... but that seems like a lot of effort if all the tune is asking for is strummed chords.

    In my opinion, there is something mandolinny in there ... which does not reference technique, only the sound of the instrument in ensemble. As an ex-oboe player, having sat next to the clarinet during Rhapsody in Blue, you're reminded that sometimes you are meant to be an invisible member of the ensemble letting those in the spotlight shine.

    In sum, I believe Steve Earle plays the mandolin like an oboe. Perhaps that's what sticks out to you about it

    Strumming a mandolin like a guitar, much like capo use on mandolins, is generally looked down on - unless it serves the tune IMO. Then all bets are off, if the tune is good. While I think the OP should learn mandolin technique, learn to exploit the strengths of the mandolin - I wouldn't forget about what serves the song and wouldn't get too hung up on anything that fits that.
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
    Begin by exploiting the similaries so you can hit the ground playing, but the sooner you realize that it isn't a little guitar the better off you will be. The similarities will jump start you, but you really want to grasp the mandolin's nuance. It's easy to play but difficult to master.
    Nice statement s-


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  18. #43
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus View Post
    Jeff, I hear you. My question back is: does the mandolin not serve the tune?

    I think we both musically attempt to do what the tune asks, not our desire for a hot break/spotlight/etc. I would think Steve would argue that the mandolin is doing exactly that.

    It might not be doing anything mandolin-like, but does it function the higher function of serving the tune? That's my take on Earle's mandolin sometimes - it's not that it's doing anything that requires mandolin technique, but the sound of the mandolin and the way the mando chords flow `does it' for the tune. .
    I agree 1000% (my math may be off). And nowhere have I said that a mandolin played that way is inferior. Well if I have said that I mispoke, its not what I mean.

    Perhaps my point is too narrow. Let me say it this way - if you are playing a mandolin in a guitarista way because it serves the tune and is best for the moment, and it is a choice you have made out of options, I am all in. I agree and probably will enjoy the music.

    But if you play the mandolin in a guitarista fashion because thats what you got, thats how you play the mandolin, because you came from guitar and picked up the mandolin and thats all what you can do on it - then IMO you may be a musician, and a great entertainer, but you are not a mandolin player.

    The mandolin can do a lot of things, And having the ability to do a lot of them and chose among all that a mandolin is capable of what works best for the tune and the situation, that is key.

    I am agruing against a limited view of the mandolin.

    There are countless other examples, that risk offending of others. Paul McCartney's "Dance Tonight". The mandolin was key there, but it could have been a ukulele. Did it make any difference that it was a mandolin? Great song, great music, great entertainment, but to focus narrowly on the topic, if a guitar player new to you, first time you are seeing him or her, on the third number picked up a mandolin and played "Dance Tonight" and put it down, and played the rest of the show with a guitar - you might say it was a great show, but would it not irk you a little if a reviewer called that performer a multi-instrumentalist on the basis of what you saw?
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  19. #44
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    I will give you a counter example. Eddie Vedder's Rise. I think he did a great thing with that mandolin. Because he used the more steccato bright springie voice of the instrument to bring out his song. And to contrast with the range and tembre of his voice. Brilliant tune I think. Though not using a lot of mandolinny things, he really took advantage of the mandolin's natural voice, and a uke or small guitar substituted for the mandolin cannot do that song justice.

    I don't think that is true (or as true) with the Steve Earle example or the Paul McCartney example.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  20. #45

    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post


    But if you play the mandolin in a guitarista fashion because thats what you got, thats how you play the mandolin, because you came from guitar and picked up the mandolin and thats all what you can do on it - then IMO you may be a musician, and a great entertainer, but you are not a mandolin player.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am agruing against a limited view of the mandolin.
    Pologize for not reading ther above posts in their entirety yet

    Jeff, I hear what you're saying (at least whgat I've read thus far) and wonder if it was you (i think it was) who was talking about--it's what we don't know, limitations, that defines or shapes or dictates our playing...not that it's right or wrong, just thinking...but it makes sense. I think having a relatively strict concept of what is mandolin playing might impede any number of opportunites to hear the mandolin played, if you know what I mean

    But what if someone plays it in a "naive" fashion and it doesn't sound quite like somoene else playing it in a similar naive, "native," guitar-like or whatever fashion? Would this not create interest, of its own merit? From a musical perspective that is

  21. #46
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Yeah....that reminds me of "Can white men play the blues?"
    C'mon Niles, you know thats not what I mean.

    You're talking about examples where an instrumentalist is expanding the expressiveness of the instrument by taking inspiration from other instruments, other styles.

    I am talking about playing the mandolin like a guitar because it is what one bothered to learn how to do.
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  22. #47
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I think having a relatively strict concept of what is mandolin playing might impede any number of opportunites to hear the mandolin played, if you know what I mean
    I absolutely agree. But we are not talking about too narrow a conception of a mandolin, we are talking about taking the expedient way out and claiming the title anyway.

    But what if someone plays it in a "naive" fashion and it doesn't sound quite like somoene else playing it in a similar naive, native, guitar-like or whatever fashion? Would this not create interest, of its own merit? From a musical perspective that is
    Of course it would.

    The real question, though is from the OP - if one plays guitar and then migrates to the mandolin - and playing guitar on the mandolin is one of the pitfalls to be avoided. It has merit as choice technique where and when it works best, but otherwise it smacks of not doing your homework.
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  23. #48
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    I use the above musical examples not to speak pejoratively about the musicians. In fact I have little idea of what else they do on the mandolin from which they chose what they did do. I just refer to their particular performances as examples of what I am getting at.
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  24. #49
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    If a mandolin player picked up a fiddle, and played it pizzicato while holding it oss his lap - it may be great, it may be stellar, it may knock all our socks off - but if that is all the mandolin player could do on the fiddle I would be loath to call him a fiddler.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  25. #50

    Default Re: Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I would be loath to call him a fiddler.
    Well it often comes down to that. That's what I was addressing

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I think having a relatively strict concept of what is mandolin playing might impede any number of opportunites to hear the mandolin played, if you know what I mean

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