Water based dye question

[Eddie Blevins]

I'm about to do my first sunburst finish with water based dye (TransTint from LMI) and Tru-oil. I'll be hand applying the dye. My concern is whether or not to seal the spruce top before applying the dye to get a more even application and if so, what to seal it with so that the dye will take. I plan to use Tru-Oil sealer over the dye.

[the padma]

Well

me understanding of such matters is that water base dyes need to soak into the wood. and that a sealer prevents this from happening. Also oils are ment to penitrate into the wood not sit on top like laqcuers and waterborne finishes. However if you wish to seal first then shellack is the chosen preference for loofers. Do tests first.


blessings
duh Padma

[belbein]

tt: I am at the same point you are and have the same question you do, and will be interested to see the answers. Just one thing I can tell you from recent experience: (1) the colors are way, way darker than they appear to be, so dilute more and put on more coats* and (2) I found it very blotchy, but less so when it dried. OK, so that was two things.

Oh wait, there's a third ... (3) Supposedly, if before you dye, you "raise the grain" with water, you then sand it down and only have to do this once and never again But I found that even after "raising the grain" and sanding, that after then using the water based stain I raised the grain yet again. Perhaps if you really flood the spruce and sand it down, this won't happen when you apply the dye, but don't be surprised if it happens to you when you lather on the water-based dye.

----
*I was told by the folks at Highland Hardware that because dye soaks into the cells of the wood, it will only get so dark and then not any darker. Their point was that once the cells are full, and anything you add won't make it darker--and conversely, the best way to fill those cells is slowly, with lighter tints. I don't know. I know a little biology and a very little bit about using TransTint and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but maybe it's true.

[sunburst]

You're getting ahead of yourself if you're starting out on the instrument. Assuming you haven't done this already (you didn't mention it...), before you apply any stain to the instrument, you need to sand some scraps of similar wood completely to the finish stage, then try your dyes directly on the wood, try each sealer you think you might want to use, and when you find what works, what gives you the look you're after, then stain the instrument with the confidence of your tests on scrap behind you. It may sound like a lot of extra work, but it is less work than stripping the instrument and starting over if you don't get good results.
As for the water soluble dyes, I can't give you any specific advice. I've applied hand rubbed sunbursts to various instruments for over 20 years, but I've never used water soluble dyes.

[amowry]

I don't use any kind of sealer, and my sense is that not many people do. One thing I do on spruce that helps reduce blotchiness is to dampen the whole top with water right before I start staining, which helps keep the end grain areas from absorbing dye to quickly. It helps to use fairly dilute dyes, at least until you get to the very edges of the sunburst. One problem many people have with waterbased dyes is getting the perimeter of the sunburst dark enough to look good. Because alcohol dyes dry faster, they're a little easier in terms of getting the dark areas dark enough. However, they stick to binding better, so they make scraping a little more time consuming. Like John said, practicing on scrap is the most important thing. The curved surface of a mandolin will absorb the dye differently than flat scrap, but at least it will give you a feel for how concentrated your dyes are, what the colors look like when blended, how to blend them, etc.

[Eddie Blevins]

I do intend to test my dyes on scrap. I have an old spruce fiddle top that I carved as practice a while back. That will be my final test piece, since it is carved and will most closely represent my mando top. I will try wetting the wood first to keep the absorbtion down.
If I use alcohol based dye instead of water based, will I have a problem with the Tru-Oil finish moving the dye around?

[amowry]

If you're using Transtint, it will be the same (in terms of bleeding) after it dries whether you used water or alcohol as the carrier. Tru-Oil is pretty safe with Transtint either way, but if you're wiping on any sealer you have to be a little careful with the first coat, e.g. wipe along the binding rather than from the wood onto the binding, and expose a fresh spot of rag if it gets dirty with dye

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Please use the search engine before you post a new thread like this. There are hundreds of VERY detailed threads containing a ton of insight, wisdom, and a number of very good videos on this subject that have already answered the questions you are asking!

[Jim Hilburn]

Ask away. We might as well shut this thing down if we have to come up with original questions.

[belbein]

I'm here to defend TT. I'll be the first to admit that I'm incompetent when it comes to search engines. But I, personally, did try to find this same question specifically, and either got nothing or an error message that I didn't understand, something about an embarrassment of riches.

[Eddie Blevins]

I did try the search engine and came up with a few posts, but the way the search engine works it's difficult to find exactly what you need sometimes. I also watched your video, James, and although it is very usefull, it did not address my specific questions about sealing the spruce. I know that the maple will be much easier to control, as seen in your video. Sorry for the aggravation. I'll start my own experiments next week.

[Arnt]

Also be prepared for the fact that spruce can be somewhat unpredictable. Even if you follow the excellent advice above, some areas may absorb the colors in unexpected ways, regardless of grain direction, wetting etc., and not behave at all like your test piece. This makes it hard to get nice, even colors and transitions, and it is quite difficult to correct well if it happens, and the result can end up looking a little blotchy. That is one reason I like to spray the top, even if I rub the colors on everything else. It is also possible to wipe a lighter burst first, and then spray the darker colors around the edges. As Andrew mentioned, it can be difficult to make the edges dark enough with just wiping, this is easier with spraying.

I think it is a good idea to test different methods first, to see what works best for you. Then, make sure you test your complete finish schedule, including the correct woods, sanding grits, colors and clear coats (the colors will change when the clear coats go on etc.), so you can do it confidently before you commit to your instrument.

[Bernie Daniel]

I did try the search engine and came up with a few posts, but the way the search engine works it's difficult to find exactly what you need sometimes. I also watched your video, James, and although it is very usefull, it did not address my specific questions about sealing the spruce. I know that the maple will be much easier to control, as seen in your video. Sorry for the aggravation. I'll start my own experiments next week.

Sometimes its tricky using a search engine but in this digital/ethernet age it is certainly a skill worth developing!

As to grandcaynonmistrel's point there are several great videos on YouTube and elsewhere on creating a sunburst on a guitar or mandolin. I would advise watching them.

Here is sunburst detailing how to create a sunburst! He noted he does not use water soluble dyes though. I love this video and have watched it several times -- I see something new each time!

[Eddie Blevins]

Thanks, Bernie. I've seen that video as well. As you stated, he did not use water based dyes. I get the technique. Both videos are excellent at showing how to achieve a really nice sunburst.
I also searched Google. I still did not find an answer to my particular question. I've read lots of web artcles that I found. Search as I may, the answer is not out there. My skills at searching are not the problem, nor the point. I thought the reason for this forum was to ask questions and get opinions and help. Sorry if I wasted anyone time.

[sunburst]

...One thing I do on spruce that helps reduce blotchiness is to dampen the whole top with water right before I start staining, which helps keep the end grain areas from absorbing dye to quickly...

My base color is amber. Sometimes lemon yellow followed by amber, depending on how yellow I want the center, but the whole instrument gets a good rub of amber all over before any other work on the 'burst begins. The amber stain must be still wet (at least damp) before applying the other colors, and I assume that works similarly to Andrews dampening of the top. If the surface dries too much at any time, I give it a wipe with alcohol, once again accomplishing something similar to Andrew's dampening.
There's no real substitute for a certain amount of experience for consistently getting good 'bursts, but I must say I've seen excellent results from early, even first attempts.
Follow the advice you've gotten here, use your dyes fairly dilute (but not too dilute or you'll probably saturate the thing with water before the color starts to build) and you'll be able to get a good burst.

Since Bernie linked to my 'burst of the restoration project mandolin video, I'll say a few words about that. I was using my dyes a little more dilute than usual because I was trying to match a "period correct" color and darkness (for lack of a better word) of that color. When I'm doing my usual bursts, I can use my dyes a little more concentrated and the work goes faster. The 'burst in the video took me about an hour, and as you can see, I used an airbrush to touch up some slightly blotchy places and darken the edge a little. When I'm doing my usual burst on a new instrument, I can stop whenever I think it looks done. A little lighter, a little darker, it doesn't matter. In the video I needed to match a teens Gibson burst. I had three or so old Gibsons in the shop at the time for reference, and the more dilute dyes gave me the opportunity to "sneak up on" the color. Color can always be added, but once it's there is can't really be removed.

[Eddie Blevins]

Thanks, guys. This gives me a lot of options to try on my practice wood. I think I'll also get an airspry kit and have that as an option as well. Sorry if I came off a little aggitated earlier. I meant no disrespect to anyone, especially James. Thanks for the tips and encouragement.

[Tommando]

I use TransTint diluted with water and I rub it on. I don't seal the spruce top first beyond a thorough sanding. I go to 320 grit and then a light sanding with 400 grit, because that seems to "close" the cells pretty well. Amber is applied first to the whole top. This gives a pretty good idea of how the wood is absorbing in different places. It helps to wet the top slightly before applying the amber.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Of all the things I do instrument related, consistent high quality finish work is the most demanding and at times the most frustrating.

The biggest challenge I find with coloring spruce is the variations in the material. I've used no sealer, sealer, light wash coats of varnish and then sanded them off, and even egg whites in the Spanish classical guitar traditions. Every method tends to vary each time I use a different wood or instrument. Wetting the spruce with just a light coat of water first is probably the most important step; without it the color tends to "grab" and streak making a mess of things.

Rather than a specific method for application, hand rubbing a finish for me is more of a philosophy- I try to envision the end result and then I maintain a very flexible and adaptable process whereby I never try to force anything. I rub a little, I listen to the wood, I rub a little more, I may vary the mixture or the method, and I'm always trying to work a few steps ahead of where I am now. It is a bit like a Tai Chi dance of counterbalancing harmony. The person who taught me the most about hand rubbing finishes used to say, "Why would I ever need to take up yoga or fly fishing, when I can get the same thing when I'm French polishing..." He changed my entire finishing process from about 45 days of absolute misery into a pleasant five separate 45 minute sessions and the instrument is done.

Finish work on mandolins used to be very challenging to me trying to get consistent results....then I started building double basses...


j.

[Jim Hilburn]

I went to the Symposium the year Steve Gilchrist did a workshop on using water dyes and french polishing. If there's one thing he said that would be of use here it was to apply the stain "dry" or in other words, damp. Don't flood the surface.

[belbein]

What? "Five 45 minute sessions" ? Tell me tell me tell me.

I'm doing yoga. I fly fish. I just can't finish for s**t.