Timing Is Everything!

[mandopete]

Does anyone else around here have problems with speeding up (or even slowing down)? I've known this as a fault in my own playing for some time, but I have never found a good solution to the problem. I've tried the metronome route, but when it comes to playing music with others it just doesn't seem to have the desired effect.

I would love to hear from others here on the Cafe.

[catmandu2]

How do you count Pete? Drummers count twice the meter they're playing--which might help you even it out over the duration of a tune

[belbein]

I grew up with classical string players. I've taken lessons from true musicians--performers, I mean--in classical, folk, bluegrass. And I have lots of friends who are musicians. EVERYsingleBODY has problems speeding up. That may be the one and only benefit of practice--learning restraint. (Not that I do either practice or restrain myself in this or anything else ...)

[Don Grieser]

Butch said there were 3 T's: timing, tone, taste.

[Narayan Kersak]

When I played with some professionals, and they pointed out my timing problem, I quickly got to practicing with a metronome. The more you do it, and stomp your foot with it, the more ingrained your timing becomes, and the better neural connections you have so you can be precise and accurate. The brain needs to be stretched and grown and rebuilt in a different fashion. Stomping one's foot makes it a full body experience. Then when you are out playing, you can stomp some more, keep time, and give a nice bass drum sound if you are on a stage. Plus the stomping helps keep everyone together, even the folks who think they have perfect timing!

[dcoventry]

Yeah. I have what's called an "elastic sense of timing". Playing with others has helped, metronome helps.

[farmerjones]

Rather than to just play with a nome, our John McGann suggested a sort of game. I used to speed it up to whatever i played, he said to slow it down. Divide it in half, then divide it in half again. Play along to where it clicks the last beat of the measure. Very slow. Also, play along with the nome set very slowly, then walk out of the room and back, you should still be in time. The whole idea is to internalize that beat/click. Just because the nome clicks slow doesn't mean the tune is slow, you understand.
When you play with a band, especially with a bass, you really have to just go along.

[mandopete]

How do you count Pete? Drummers count twice the meter they're playing--which might help you even it out over the duration of a tune

Yes, this is what I normally do with a click track or a metronome. I like to hear the sub divisons of the beat so in 4/4 you can hear 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND. My problem really stems from trying to apply this to a real world situation and not just home practice. I'm thinking it might actually have to do more with a combination of listening and relaxing (I tend to get a little excited sometimes). I've taken to trying to find the person in the group that has good timing or a good sense of the timing and match up the that person. If I can hear that person, or better yet, see that person it helps.

I was also thinking if others here might agree and if you are unfamiliar with a piece of music or struggling with it there might be a tendancy to rush as result. My current situation is playing bass and I'm still a little challenged with intonation and such and perhaps that mental situation is contributing to speeding up.

...or perhaps I just suck at it!

[Markus]

farmerjones - That same `set the metronome to click once a measure, or every other measure' I got from a Victor Wooten metronome video too. Have the metronome click the 1 beat - YOU need to keep the rest on. Set it to beat every other measure.

Then, instead of the 1 beat, have the metronome click be the 4 beat, or 2 beat, or ... John McGann mentioned that when I needed to hear it, and find it's a good test to see if I'm really concentrating fully.

Walking out of the room, then walking back in is a good idea. I've used my leg to cover the metronome and muffle/unmuffle it in the past - but it's not silent like that.

[catmandu2]

I'm thinking it might actually have to do more with a combination of listening and relaxing (I tend to get a little excited sometimes). I've taken to trying to find the person in the group that has good timing or a good sense of the timing and match up the that person. If I can hear that person, or better yet, see that person it helps.

I was also thinking if others here might agree and if you are unfamiliar with a piece of music or struggling with it there might be a tendancy to rush as result. My current situation is playing bass and I'm still a little challenged with intonation and such and perhaps that mental situation is contributing to speeding up.

...or perhaps I just suck at it!

Well I believe that you're about the internal aspect here: you have external mechansims at hand to assist with timekeeping. But when playing alone, one must rely on an internal mechanism. One challenge to the internal mechanism is emotional state, so approaching the issue from as many aspects as you can--relaxation, and methods to this end such as repetition, concentration, etc--will help

I played a lot of bach, where meter over a long duration is quite important, and I find that "stepping out of" the piece and listening to the form, the feeling, the content--as a whole--all at once from a metaperspective helps; seeing the begining, end, and middle may help to constitute a mental cohesion of total form which may induce your ability to conceive of the dramatic process where meter must be controlled at all times. That is, if you have a feeling for the overall piece at all times, you may be more able to control its flow--by possessing an awareness of how the total piece should sound, which could help override internal emotional states which involuntarily affect execution, stepping back and seeing the entirety -- bit like a conductor

[Chip Booth]

Yeah I think most players have this issue. One good way for me to deal with it has been too practice playing TOO SLOW. There are some instruments (especially clawhammer banjo) where I want to blast through everything. In the case of the banjo part of that is that my technique is bad and the faster a tune is the less noticeable my mistakes are. Forcing myself to slow way down below performance speed and focus on every note really helps.

I have also noticed some combinations of band member personalities create a situation where people tend to speed up. A bass player I worked with for years and I would have a great time and get each going, so we had to learn to control that.

i still find myself rushing a little bit during some exciting solos, but it isn't a big deal. Where I suffer the most is micro-timing, the space between 1/8 notes, or even the exact attack point of a note. These tiny little timing errors are probably glossed over live for the most part but I really notice them when I record as I have this week. For me the issue boils down mainly to the fact that I improvise so much of my performances. This sometimes creates the tiniest hint of hesitation. I notice that when i play a part that is well rehearsed those timing errors tend to show up considerably less. Like Steve Miller told me once, "If you're thinkin' you're stinkin'"!

[catmandu2]

Well I believe that you're about the internal aspect here:

I mean, you're RIGHT about the internal aspect

[mingusb1]

If you're in to classic country and honky tonk at all, playing along with some Hank Williams, Patsy Cline, Ray Price, Lefty Frizzell recordings will sure expose any rushing/speeding up in your playing. The rhythm and beats tend to be slow and very deliberate on a lot of it. And the stuff sounds good with mandolin, too!

Z

[mandopete]

I have also noticed some combinations of band member personalities create a situation where people tend to speed up. A bass player I worked with for years and I would have a great time and get each going, so we had to learn to control that. Like Steve Miller told me once, "If you're thinkin' you're stinkin'"!

Excellent observation!

Funny thing, all Steve ever said to me was to "fly like an eagle" -go figure!

[Randi Gormley]

We have the opposite problem with one of our band members, who tends to slow down as a tune progresses (I dunno, maybe his foot gets tired? or his hands?) and since he's on keyboards, he can really drag down a piece. He cranks up the sound, too, so the only thing he can hear is himself, so he apparently can't hear how much he's dragging ... and we also have a flute player who skips a lot of notes (for breaths, among other things) and jumps back in without giving each missed note its full timing. Since he's concentrating on breath control, he also doesn't listen to anybody else. If I'm sitting next to either of these guys, I'll shout out to them that they're either slowing down or speeding up (the advantage of being able to talk while playing), but in cases where we're about ready to throw something at either of these guys, we'll gently suggest that they keep watch on the foot of one of our members who has the ability to keep a steady beat. Some times it works.

[catmandu2]

Good lord randi! You have my sympathies...I simply cannot tolerate poor time. Maybe why I do most of my gigging on bass and drums

[Pete Martin]

In addition to learning to play in time, one needs to master playing ahead, on top of and behind the beat. One needs to understand how they work in lead playing and the rhythm section in the music they play. The best way to practice this is VERY slow with a metronome until you can place your note (or chord) in exact time with how the music needs it.

The first thing I listen for when playing with anyone is do they understand this. If so, playing is a lot of fun with a lot of interaction between players.

[Jack Roberts]

I speed up too much. So I need to listen to the bass player, but when he isn't with us, I tap my foot. The singers don't like it when we play too fast...

[Tommando]

In addition to learning to play in time, one needs to master playing ahead, on top of and behind the beat. One needs to understand how they work in lead playing and the rhythm section in the music they play. The best way to practice this is VERY slow with a metronome until you can place your note (or chord) in exact time with how the music needs it.

The first thing I listen for when playing with anyone is do they understand this. If so, playing is a lot of fun with a lot of interaction between players.

I am really struggling right now with an upright bass player whose timing is good, but she plays everything behind the beat. Great for a lot of stuff, but not at all for bluegrass or most country or rock. It feels like she is playing too slowly and dragging the songs down down even though her tempo is right, and it causes her husband to speed up the tempo on the guitar as the song progresses in an effort to speed her up. Can't get her to use a metronome. He plays right on the beat always, and I tend to play just ahead of the beat, which doesn't help the situation at all.

[JonZ]

Timing

















is crucial.

[Mandolin Yogi]

My Mandolin teacher once told me that the Carter Sisters perfected their timing by walking around the house while playing. They would all begin at once, walk off in different directions, and then try to meet back up for the ending.

[OldSausage]

My Mandolin teacher once told me that the Carter Sisters perfected their timing by walking around the house while playing. They would all begin at once, walk off in different directions, and then try to meet back up for the ending.

I've heard that said about 6 or 7 different bands over the years. I suppose someone might do it as a parlor trick, but I've always found it hard to believe it's really a useful practice technique. Anyone ever tried it?

[Jean Fugal]

I read in a Bluegrass Unlimited interview with Missy Raines years ago that the Bass plays on beats 1 & 3 and sets the tempo. The time is set by the other band member by the placement off the 2 and 4. At least that is what I think I remember and may or may not understand.

Now if the Bass is following the band because he/she is unsure, they will cause a drag or even an uneven tempo. If the bass is a rock solid "metronome" then the problem does not lie with the Bass.

It is all to common as Mr. Martin sez' that the different members although individually competent musicians to fail to place the note where it is needed for that particular number.

Me, yes I am guilty of not being up to speed on playing ahead of, on, or behind the beat. I tend toward and "Old Country" feel. Perhaps that is because I am old.

Pete? Comments please. I respect your input.

[greg_tsam]

I've been playing with a lifelong musician and well seasoned veteran and he slows down when singing, picks up when instumental breaks come along and does it by design saying he likes the music to "breath". It really threw me off at first since I was pretty strict about using a metronome and tapping my foot for the first 5 years of playing the mando. I can do it his way but it goes against the grain for me.

[Chip Booth]

I've been playing with a lifelong musician and well seasoned veteran and he slows down when singing, picks up when instumental breaks come along and does it by design saying he likes the music to "breath". It really threw me off at first since I was pretty strict about using a metronome and tapping my foot for the first 5 years of playing the mando. I can do it his way but it goes against the grain for me.

I do this to a degree, and even build tempo changes into click tracks when I record so that the recording, even if it is multitracked, has a slightly more "live" feel to it. That said, I tend to only change the tempo by a few BPM, maybe 3 or 4 at the most over the entire length of the song. Usually it's just 1 or 2 BPM for solos and then slowing back down at some point. There was one exception where a song had a big breakdown and that changed by 10 BPM, but that felt completely natural and was forced sounding if I didn't do it.