Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Gig Hell!

**greg_tsam** · May-25-2012, 12:25pm

There are a lot of rally good replies here and much of this I already considered since I know all the details and you guys don't.

Thank all of you for chiming in. I'm not too terribly upset with the guys but do think they're being piss ants about the $20 cash+tips payout requested. That's hardly more than a nod in my direction to acknowledge my contribution.

The guitarist is well respected but known for being tight with gig money. That's why I approached him and asked if the venue could pay more so they could feel it was their idea to cut me in. When they failed to do so I asked them directly. I was trying to give them a graceful way to correct their "oversight" without burning any bridges or creating bad feelings. Obviously they weren't going to budge with even a dollar. So much for my subtlety and offering them a way to save face.

My friend that got sick (Pancreatic cancer) was the one who originally booked the show and I'm sure he was getting an equal share. BTW, it's a totally acoustic gig so no equipment necessary. When he left, the remaining two just decided to make it a duo and increase their take. I was happy to play for free and I've benefited from the weekly gig, musically.

Maybe I'm the one who confused the situation. I was never going to be part of the group, merely a permanent sit in. I saw a chance to get involved and I took it. I'm not a slouch player, I'm not the greatest but feel something (other than just tips) should have been offered after my suggestion was put out there. I asked for a token amount of acknowledgement and didn't get it. I'll live.

I don't have anything else lined up right now or have any other options, at the moment, so I might continue to show up but not every week. It's possible they miss my "chops" and ask me back but doubtful since I would to get paid. So that's not going to happen. Lol.

So let them be a duo and slug it out with the banjo and guitar. Banjo's are good for chopping accompaniment, right? Besides, the banjer player can also double on the mandolin.

In the end it's not enough to cause bad blood over so I'll mark it up as a learning experience that didn't jive and leave it at that. No hard feelings and there's always another opportunity somewhere down the line. Let bygones be bygones.

I figured some of you would get a kick out of this and thought it would make a good discussion. Thanks again.

**mandolirius** · May-25-2012, 12:33pm

Originally Posted by Steve L

A good way to gauge your value to them is to come some nights and stay home others. If they've come to rely on you and want you to commit, then they should cut you in on the money. If not, you're free to stay home, come late, leave early, and pursue other opportunites which I would suggest .

From what I read, this is the best advice. That way you're not burning bridges but still exercising some control over your situation.

**G7MOF** · May-25-2012, 12:41pm

If you're the third man, doing a third of the work, then you should get a third of the money. Not only are they not treating you as an active part of the band, they're treating you as one of there employees when realy you're a partner!!!
They'll miss you, before you'll miss them, better bands will come along!!!

**disguiseglasses** · May-25-2012, 12:50pm

I'm with Steve L. Great advice and it allows you some flexibility- both personally and musically. Good luck, sir!

**Beanzy** · May-25-2012, 1:35pm

I reckon it's time to get out there on your own account. Get the advert drawn up, get them stuck up in the local music joints.
"Wanted Guitarist and banjo player for reguslar gigs, serious giggers only" use your new stage name (The Rejects? / Blow-outs?)
Get a friend to book them in for the audition so they don't recognise the voice. Sit back and enjoy them moment they walk in the door with you & your friend in the XFactor panel.

Chalk it up lad, it's a good story for later anyway.
But do get out there on your own account, even if you don't use it as a chance to wind thse guys up.

**greg_tsam** · May-25-2012, 2:04pm

haha.. My bass player buddy said almost the same thing. Go get a playing gig, book them with me and at the end of the night collect the money and put in my pocket. heehee. evil... Not my style though but fun to think about.

Originally Posted by Beanzy

I reckon it's time to get out there on your own account. Get the advert drawn up, get them stuck up in the local music joints.
"Wanted Guitarist and banjo player for reguslar gigs, serious giggers only" use your new stage name (The Rejects? / Blow-outs?)
Get a friend to book them in for the audition so they don't recognise the voice. Sit back and enjoy them moment they walk in the door with you & your friend in the XFactor panel.

Chalk it up lad, it's a good story for later anyway.
But do get out there on your own account, even if you don't use it as a chance to wind thse guys up.

**mandolirius** · May-25-2012, 2:38pm

Originally Posted by greg_tsam

haha.. My bass player buddy said almost the same thing. Go get a playing gig, book them with me and at the end of the night collect the money and put in my pocket. heehee. evil... Not my style though but fun to think about.

Too bad, because it's a great way to make your point. Obviously you'll eventually give them their share of the money, letting them know that was your intent all along. If that doesn't get it across, nothing will. I don't find it evil at all. Some folks are just thick about certain things and you need to get creative if you want to get through to them. I'm assuming you like this playing situation and would like it to continue.

**250sc** · May-25-2012, 2:52pm

No revenge is called for. They never promised the OP any money. He went into it with his eyes open and agreed to the terms even though he hoped it would change into something more. I can't see getting bent out of shape over this and think all involved should walk to a club close by and start pulling customers so the the cheap bar owner has to offer more money per night.

**allenhopkins** · May-25-2012, 7:42pm

As I see it, you're either in the band or you aren't. If you are, you get a fair split of the "guarantee" as well as tips. If you're not, just "sitting in," then you get what the other two choose to give you, and what you're satisfied with.

I've sat in countless times with friends, on an ad hoc basis, and never expected to get paid. But I never showed up, week after week, as a "sit-in." If you're expected to be there reliably, learn the band's repertoire, perhaps even rehearse (what a concept!), then you're more than a "sit-in."

In the end, comes down to what you're willing to take. Music can be enjoyment in and of itself; I go to lots of events where I play and don't get paid, for a variety of reasons. If I start feeling resentment, begin to consider myself "ill-used," then the gig's not fun any more, and I quit showing up. If I'm officially part of a group, I (ever the consummate pro) show up and do what I'm supposed to do. But if the arrangement seems unfair or exploitive, I figure it's time for a face-to-face sit-down and discussion of what my role is, and what's fair compensation for that role.

Seems to me that this gig's pretty "small potatoes," with a low guarantee and few tips, and probably not worth even the time we've put in discussing it -- other than there don't seem to be a lot of other opportunities available. Recommend that "honest discussion" among the three of you, and a subsequent decision on what your objectives are, and what level of "unfairness" you're willing to tolerate.

**SGraham** · May-25-2012, 9:19pm

I was never going to be part of the group, merely a permanent sit in.

So Greg, what is a permanent sit in? Seems like a contradiction in terms.

**Bertram Henze** · May-26-2012, 1:31am

Money should never get in the way of either enjoying music or enjoying your own dignity. Therefore, a jam might be the way to go.

**greg_tsam** · May-26-2012, 1:41am

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Seems to me that this gig's pretty "small potatoes," with a low guarantee and few tips, and probably not worth even the time we've put in discussing it --

Yes, it's small potatoes w/ a low guarantee and few tips. You're right. Whether this is worth being discussed is up to those that read and choose to respond so they (you) can decide whether to participate or not. I think a lot of good points were brought forward and I agree.

I misunderstood the situation for what it was and became disillusioned. It happens to all of us even "consummate professionals" , I'm guessing, since none of us know it all. My post was an attempt to get input from those with experience and it's helped my come to grips with the fact I took it wrong. However, I asked for what I wanted, got denied so now it's over. No big deal really but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond even if it wasn't really worth the time it took to type it.

Originally Posted by SGraham

So Greg, what is a permanent sit in? Seems like a contradiction in terms.

You're right. My attempt to understand the situation. Hindsight is 20/20 and it seems so obvious now.

**Ivan Kelsall** · May-26-2012, 2:05am

Greg - It's seems fairly obvious that you've become the '3rd man' even though the other 2 guys are reluctant to admit it.If you're doing the job that your friend was doing,then for me it's only right that you should get the same share.I understand your feeling re.the playing side of it,but let's face it,you're being used !. I haven't played or even had chance to play with a band/group whatever in over 40 years. I tell myself that i'd do it for free simply for the chance to play,but i'm not being honest with myself there. If i'm thought to be good enough to be playing with a group of musicians on a regular basis,then i'd at least want 'gas cash',just so i wouldn't make a total loss on the deal,but in your case,personally, i feel that you aught to ask them to stump up your fair share or it's 'adios amigos'. I just don't feel that you're being treaded fairly,
Ivan

**Patrick Sylvest** · May-26-2012, 7:16am

Every gig that I play, I evaluate whether it's worth my time. If the money is poor or nonexistent, sometimes there are other benefits that make it worthwhile.

Sometimes you make some good contacts and get some exposure. Other times, you brighten someone's day in a nursing home, or help raise money for a good cause. You might just enjoy time with friends. Occasionally, you might even make decent money.

As the circumstances change, and they will, re-evaluate how you might better spend this time.

I'd drop in on that gig without an instrument, get to know the proprietor, and be ready with your own act when these guys drop the ball. They aren't the only musicians in your town and I'll bet you're better than you think. Also, I agree that an unpaid third wheel comes and goes as he pleases.

**Patrick Sylvest** · May-26-2012, 7:23am

Originally Posted by greg_tsam

No big deal really but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond even if it wasn't really worth the time it took to type it.

It's worthwhile subject matter. This situation of inequity is common and may offer people some good tips on how to approach it. At the very least, there's nothing wrong with 'venting' a bit.

**journeybear** · May-26-2012, 7:28am

Good points. The money you aren't making still buys you something - freedom. If you are not being paid you are not obligated. They can't have it both ways. And as Ivan said (and, well, I did, too), you are the third man, having filled the vacancy left by your friend (hope he's doing OK, BTW), and deserve equal pay. But anyway, however this plays out, I for one am interested, even curious, to hear how things go, so keep us posted. My possibly worthy opinion is you should show up for the next gig ready to play and see if you can work things out. But if they refuse to pay you, walk out. If, for whatever reason they have, they consciously deny you your due and say so to your face, they are jerks, and it just ain't worth it.

And I'll second the notion that even if all you're doing here is venting, and you can't resolve your issues with these guys, there's a real good chance others reading this thread will learn from it. As I'm sure you have, as well. Oh, and as to the first part of the title - I say, laugh! There are billions of gig stories out there, and you've got a few just from this one. There'll be many more to come. This is great material for story swapping sessions with other musicians. "Hey, you think you had a messed-up gig. Listen to this ..." It'll come up, count on it.

**Mark Seale** · May-26-2012, 8:24am

Greg -

I've been there with these guys. The quickest way to get paid is to book your own gig and include them. If you want to make it a trio, do so for more than this gig. I would call dealing with this guitar picker a somewhat unique situation. I do hope the banjo picker isn't learning his ways.

**Cheryl Watson** · May-26-2012, 9:13am

You are being taken advantage of, used, and there is a LOT of this going on in the music business. I am the lead singer of my band; I also write all the original material and the band includes my name but I split the money evenly with my band members. If I were a contracted, touring artist with management and huge overhead expenses (bus, etc) hired band members would be paid less. But, when local people play together at a gig, the money is generally split unless one person does all the singing, gets all the gigs and provides and sets up all the sound equipment.

**Mandobart** · May-26-2012, 10:24am

Greg - Your situation is similar to my own when I first started playing out. I was green on the mandolin and hadn't played any music in public for decades. Started doing an open mic hosted by a locally known singer/songwriter AE guitar player. He was impressed, really encouraged me to keep playing in public. A little later he asked me to sit in with his band for a couple local gigs. Well I jumped at that, didn't even think of pay (I have a good paying day job, and these gigs were on nights preceding days off). So I played, it was great fun, we sounded good. This guy also frequently books local solo gigs for himself; wineries, coffee shops, etc. I should note that unlike me, this is his only source of income. He asked me to play along on a few. Again, I was still new to mando, and I had already recognized playing live with other people was really helping me develop musically, so I happily played as a duo for a few beers and a meal on each gig. He books all the gigs, and hauls his PA (I always help setup and take down; we're friends you know).

Now time goes by and I've been playing a lot locally with him and a few other acts. I've progressed to where I can get on the stage and play with just about anyone, just about any genre. I only go to gigs that are local and don't conflict with other family/work/personal commitments. I consider myself a musical hobbyist; I'm doing this for the enjoyment, its not a job. I've also had the chance to introduce a lot of folks in the audience to the world of mando instruments ('dola, OM and mandocello) as well as 5-string fiddle and octave fiddle which is personally rewarding to me. But...now when someone asks me to come to a "big" gig (local festival or event) I either get paid or don't go; no hard feelings on my part. I'm good enough now that I add a lot to the mix, and get great response from the crowd.. And I'm not going out of town for any "free" gig, or staying up late when I have to work the next day.

The pay scale ain't great up here either, btw. Lucky to get $100 per player for a 3 - 4 hour gig. I feel like one of the lucky ones; my real job provides enough money and free time for me to pursue my hobbies, one of which is playing music.

**greg_tsam** · May-26-2012, 11:28am

When I read this I thought to myself "It sounds like he knows who I'm talking about." and then I realized you know exactly who I'm talking about. Oops. So much for the anonymity of the internet but let's keep this just bet. us, please. No need in causing any bad blood in real life. ha...

Originally Posted by Mark Seale

Greg -

I've been there with these guys. The quickest way to get paid is to book your own gig and include them. If you want to make it a trio, do so for more than this gig. I would call dealing with this guitar picker a somewhat unique situation. I do hope the banjo picker isn't learning his ways.

**greg_tsam** · May-26-2012, 11:32am

p.s. - The banjo player had a chance to chip in but didn't so I guess in this instance he is following in his footsteps. I was surprised by that.

**llg** · May-26-2012, 12:11pm

Sounds like to me you are doing the right thing in taking the high road. It may not make the best business sense but in the end we all have to answer for how we treat others and it sounds like you are...they are not.
I have found many great people to play with...some great musicians some mediocre. I've also found many great musicians that are not so great to play with because they are just not great people. In fact I can't stand those that claim to be full time starving musicans only because they are too lazy to do anything else. Heck some of the best musicians I've ever seen were not full time professional musicians but instead had other careers and just played music for fun and maybe a little extra money--but just happened to be really good. Many full time wannabe's are jealous of that, because they want to be full time and really are not better than others that have "real jobs" in addition to playing and singing well.
Good luck Greg.

**mandocrucian** · May-26-2012, 12:54pm

In the end it's not enough to cause bad blood over so I'll mark it up as a learning experience that didn't jive and leave it at that. No hard feelings and there's always another opportunity somewhere down the line. Let bygones be bygones.

Besides......you know aikido and they don't. A little sample of sankyo or kotagaishi and they'll beg for mercy!

Otherwise you'll now be the best player in the room. Say hello to my little friends......

**Mark Seale** · May-26-2012, 5:31pm

Originally Posted by greg_tsam

p.s. - The banjo player had a chance to chip in but didn't so I guess in this instance he is following in his footsteps. I was surprised by that.

Banjo player needs to learn.

**Jim Ferguson** · May-26-2012, 5:56pm

Heh Greg........I know there is a lot of commentary about the $$$ but as I read your post & some of the replies, what came to me is that it is not FIRST about the $$$.......yes the $$$ would be nice BUT it really is FIRST about being valued & appreciated for the talent you bring to the group and if you are being valued then the $$$ part should take care of itself.........I could see doing it once or twice as a fill-in for the tip jar but the moment this became a regular gig, your contribution to the trio is as important as that of the other two members & if there isn't an equitable sharing of the spoils then it tells me that your contribution is not valued by the other two group members & that tells me they are taking advantage of your good nature & kindness. To me, it is about fairness and the arrangement is simply not fair to you. Yes you love to play but heh so do they and they still reap other benefits other than playing.......you should too in an equitable manner.
Peace,