Dealing with Difficult Builder

[thistle3585]

For me, all aspects of the build are pretty routine and happen in a pretty even pace except for finishing. I hate the finish process. I can't count how many times I've told a customer, "I sprayed the last coat today and I'll buff it out and get it set up once the lacquer sets in ten days." A lot of times, that is understood by the customer to mean it will ship in ten days but what I mean is that I'll buff it out and if all goes well then I'll do the setup and get it ready for shipping. When it comes time to buff it, A) there is a flaw I didn't see, B) some sanding marks I didn't see, C) a burn through D) occasionally it goes okay. Any repair to the finish, regardless of how minute, is easily a 7-10 day delay just waiting for it to cure. I remember pushing it once, the customer was leaving on a trip and wanted it sitting at home for when he got back, only for him to call me and say that the case material imprinted on the lacquer. So, it was sent back to me on my dime, repaired then returned, on my dime. It was my fault that I agreed to shipping it too soon, but I can't deny that I felt pressure to do it. In all honesty, I can't say whether the pressure came from him or me to have a happy customer.

[OldGus]

Everyone butts heads every now and again. It's good to see when people come to terms with each other and a disagreement is reasonably solved... character development is like making an instrument, sometime you got to sand away the rough edges... and when handled properly you come out a more refined person; life is for learning.

[Bill Clements]

This thread was of most interest to me because I put a healthy deposit on an instrument the first week of February. I have been touching base with the luthier about once a month, mostly by phone. In my case, it has worked well to have the build take a while. I requested a couple changes in the fingerboard (compound radius and larger frets) and because he hadn't gotten that far into the project there was no problem. He didn't even charge anything extra!
I have a receipt for my deposit which shows the balance owed, but the completion was a verbal estimate on his part. I suppose I felt he'd be motivated to get paid, and I'd be rewarded with my patience with an instrument I could enjoy for years to come. It's all a matter of your comfort level, and the relationship you develop BEFORE you put your money down, in my view.
Glad this worked out for both parties involved to their mutual satisfaction!

[Mandobart]

Well this has been a thread worth reading. Good points raised all around, with reason and civility. I'm not taking sides; for full disclosure I have ordered a custom mando from a builder that was delivered on-time, on budget, and exceeded my (and the builder's expectations).

But... to those who say things to the effect of "you have to deliver what you promise, when you promise...holds true for any business etc..." I have to ask have you ever been involved in a major home remodel, or vehicle restoration, as either a customer or contractor? I've done many remodeling projects over the years, ranging from complete DIY to contracted out to others, and I can tell you things never go exactly to the schedule or estimate. I think that any worthwhile project that involves creativity and working with materials and tools that don't always cooperate can easily be subject to delays and unforeseen problems, despite contracts and communication. Anyway, glad to see that things appear to be working out. It'd be great if the builder/buyer could tell us the "rest of the story" when it all wraps up, if you can.

[Fretbear]

If you do work for people, the fact that you happen to be "an artist" (whatever the hell that means) doesn't have much to do with the necessity of clear understanding between both parties. This is the same whether you are a luthier, repairman or a carpenter that builds porches. If a guy comes to me and says the only guitar that he owns and gigs with is a wreck and he needs it back right away and is going to bug me until it is finished, then I will simply say "No." People who I have worked for before will just give it to me, and know that I will take that into consideration and just possibly stay up all night so they can have it in the morning, but not because poor planning on their part constitutes an emergency on my part.
Custom building in the absence of these parameters must be a nightmare with such high degrees of expectation, so many choices and the amounts of money involved.

[MikeEdgerton]

But... to those who say things to the effect of "you have to deliver what you promise, when you promise...holds true for any business etc..." I have to ask have you ever been involved in a major home remodel, or vehicle restoration, as either a customer or contractor?

Yes, had one built. Finished and delivered the week they told me it would be done. Had one remodeled that doubled the size and included a new kitchen, master and bath and it was delivered within two weeks of the estimate date. The bigger thing here is realistic communications. I think that's what broke down and as much as nobody seems to think e-mail will do it, it will. Telling someone another two weeks is fine as long as it's delivered in another two weeks. Honest communication is also good. "I'm not happy with the finish and want to redo it" is realistic and folks under stand that. "Art takes time" is not a realistic answer. It's still a business, you still have a customer to satisfy. Manage their expectations and you don't have problems.

[Rob Sharer]

It's funny, you know, the things you'll say when you run out of things to say.

There are only so many ways of saying, "it's not finished yet". You can be very specific, if that seems to be the kind of information that's desired. Or, say your customer is less the technical type and more the artsy type, you might wax poetic for a phrase or two. Maybe over time you will have said many different things, responding to different questions in varied ways to keep yourself and everyone involved interested.

I'm not sure anyone of us ever expects to have his email output collected, redacted, edited for "style" (read "unsympathetically paraphrased"), and presented as a blunt list of bullet points. Many remarks seem ludicrous when taken out of context; otherwise, where would the evening news be? I say again what I said before: I believe my communication was unfairly represented here.

As for managing expectations, well, it's sometimes easier said than done, especially when realities on the ground change. Success is more than a little dependent on whose expectations you're trying to manage. Rather than looking at it like a Jedi mind-trick ("This is not the completion date you're looking for"), a coercive process where you manage someone else, I would say it should be a collaborative process between all parties.

Building a custom instrument can be like exploring in the jungle. You look at the map, say "I'm starting here, and I'm trying to get to that big X over there", but to follow the dotted line to your destination you're going to be crossing a lot of uncharted territory (and probably taking a machete to a few lianas along the way). If you're doing it by yourself, it can be hard to say exactly when you'll break through.


Rob

[Narayan Kersak]

(please ignore lack of caps, the computer i am on is missing some keys)

well, i'm supposed to be off the grid, but doesn't always work out, when there is a McDonald's nearby with wifi!

yeah, please be clear, to get the full scope of our communication, would probably require a posting of every email exchange. also, note when i started this thread i was pretty riled up. as noted in the previous posts, Rob and I spoke on the phone and worked out a solution.

so yes, the communication between us can only be fully understood based on the full exchange, and that's neither here nor there at present. so yes, he was misrepresented, in my estimation now.

also, i was talking with my wife about this last night, (who was glad i calmed down and spoke with Rob) and i realized that, as in many areas of life, there are two different levels of communication and understanding. it was brought up over and over in this thread. basically in regards to expectations coloring our thinking.

builder says - the finish will be done in two days.
the buyer hears- i'll have my mandolin in two days.
the builder says - early january sounds good for delivery (yet may mean " i'm shooting for that time").
the buyer hears - i'll have my mandolin by January 5th.

no fault on anyone's part, when we talk with someone it's common to think they are thinking like us. As an author, when I first got started, i would write things that i just assumed everyone understood, and the editor would always tell me i need to assume the reader knows nothing to make sure they comprehend. i can see how that makes sense here now too. probably also the reason a clear contract with contingencies, (for folks who breathe easier with that sort of thing) is a good idea for interested parties. (i can see that there are also plenty of more laid back people who are fine just waiting, and letting the best scenario work out on it's own time) again, everyone has there different comfort levels. the trick might be really understanding our own, and then doing what we can to make sure it works out.

anyway, just wanted to share i concur with rob, it's hard to fully represent a situation via a forum or an email. and I am just glad we were both more interested in figuring out the problem, rather than escalating into a sh*! slinging match.

i too feel much better this weekend since it was resolved.

It's funny, you know, the things you'll say when you run out of things to say.

There are only so many ways of saying, "it's not finished yet". You can be very specific, if that seems to be the kind of information that's desired. Or, say your customer is less the technical type and more the artsy type, you might wax poetic for a phrase or two. Maybe over time you will have said many different things, responding to different questions in varied ways to keep yourself and everyone involved interested.

I'm not sure anyone of us ever expects to have his email output collected, redacted, edited for "style" (read "unsympathetically paraphrased"), and presented as a blunt list of bullet points. Many remarks seem ludicrous when taken out of context; otherwise, where would the evening news be? I say again what I said before: I believe my communication was unfairly represented here.

As for managing expectations, well, it's sometimes easier said than done, especially when realities on the ground change. Success is more than a little dependent on whose expectations you're trying to manage. Rather than looking at it like a Jedi mind-trick ("This is not the completion date you're looking for"), a coercive process where you manage someone else, I would say it should be a collaborative process between all parties.

Building a custom instrument can be like exploring in the jungle. You look at the map, say "I'm starting here, and I'm trying to get to that big X over there", but to follow the dotted line to your destination you're going to be crossing a lot of uncharted territory (and probably taking a machete to a few lianas along the way). If you're doing it by yourself, it can be hard to say exactly when you'll break through.


Rob

[Spruce]

This whole thread is "Exhibit A" as to why I gave up building instruments for folks way-back-when....

That, and the fact that I sucked at it...

[Fretbear]

That's like the guy's comment about why he doesn't climb Mount Everest;
That four climbers died trying last week; and because he gets winded going up a flight of stairs.....

[sunburst]

I've been checking in on this thread occasionally, not following it closely, and for a day or more I've been thinking that everything that needed to be said had been said (and then some!), and hoping that the thread would slide on down into the archives of "finished" threads, and I had long since resolved to not post here and add to it's life, but Narayan's last post, with the quote from Bob, has really brought home a lesson here that I hope other people notice:

Both of these guys are good communicators, yet the problem was a lack of effective communication. We may think of ourselves as being immune to situations like this; as builders, being able to keep the customer informed and confident even if we can't stick to a time line (for any and/or all of the reasons brought forth here), and as customers thinking we have the patience to wait, to understand the builder's situation. We may think we can easily communicate our desires and our situations, that we have insight into human nature that makes us able to keep everything under control, but how many of us can put our thoughts into words any better than these two? One is an author, fer cryin' out loud(!), yet here they have found themselves in this situation.
So anyway, the lesson here, to me at least, is that no matter who we are, no matter how business-like, no matter how artistic, we are all subject to miscommunication and misunderstanding, and we need to be on the lookout for it in our dealings with builders and customers. While it is somewhat unfortunate that this cringe-inducing (for me, at least, not being known for getting things done very fast...) story ended up on a public forum, I've learned a potentially valuable lesson here.

[MikeEdgerton]

This whole thread is "Exhibit A" as to why I gave up building instruments for folks way-back-when....

That, and the fact that I sucked at it...

That and the dents?

The stuff you build is spectacular by the way.

[Spruce]

That's like the guy's comment about why he doesn't climb Mount Everest;
That four climbers died trying last week; and because he gets winded going up a flight of stairs.....

Gee, thanks...

Actually, I do build a lot these days, and folks seem to be OK with the resulting instruments...
But building a pristine, flawless instrument of somebody's dreams--on deadline--was never in the cards for me...
Took all the fun right out of it...

So-ooo, antiquing is what I enjoy doing, with tons of scrapes and battlescars...

[MikeEdgerton]

The battle scars are amazing. I'm inspired by it all.

After my current project I'm doing a Nocaster.

[Spruce]

The battle scars are amazing. I'm inspired by it all.

After my current project I'm doing a Nocaster.

PM me for decals and pickups...

[re simmers]

My very limited experience with luthiers:
Custom Buckeye by Pete Hart - perfect and on time.
1977 - Neck reset on my wife's 1963 Kay bass after the airlines delivered it to England in 2 pieces (they must have dropped it from the plane!!!). It was fixed in 48 hrs - perfect and lasted 30 yrs. We were never told who fixed it. She had to play with an orchestra and they arranged the repair.
2007 - Neck reset, new bridge and touch-up on my wife's 1963 Kay bass by David Mansbridge - perfect and ahead of time because he delivered it to my wife's workplace because he was in the area (100 miles from his home)
Refret and new custom bone nut on my 1991 Flatiron by Mike Munford - perfect and ahead of time.
I checked with people who had these guys do work for them before. Very positive feedback.

I had one very bad experience with having and 1974 Gibson F-12 converted by a well known luthier.(I won't bash him on the cafe) Since that time, a number of musicians have told me they had similar experiences with him. He's so well known that I assumed the best and never checked with anyone.

I know the value of checking references. If a builder requires more time than expected, or does sloppy work on 9 out of 10 builds and/or repairs, forget it. If they need more time 1 out of 10 times that's acceptable to me. This thread has convinced me even more, the value of checking with prior customers.

Bob

[Spruce]

This thread has convinced me even more, the value of checking with prior customers.

...and that would work the other way around as well...

[Rob Sharer]

There's a slightly illogical theme running through a few replies that I thought I'd address. It's the attempt to prove something by comparing one person's best to another's worst.

I'm reminded of Jeremy Clarkson, the British television presenter. More than once, I've read a rant of his where he holds up England's shining achievements, while bashing America's overweight McDonald's diners, crummy cars, Walmart culture, etc. No mention is made of Bill Gates, Maya Angelou, or Buzz Aldrin, and certainly there's no mention of English football hooligans, happy-slapping chavs, or council estate dead-enders (or MG wiring harnesses). It's hardly convinced me to move over there, anyway.

Meanwhile, back on these shores, a certain builder of funky-looking resonator instruments has been publicly outed as late on a build (actually, I outed myself, since I wasn't named in the original posts). A few folks have rushed in to say, "This other time, well, this other guy, he built something else...and it was on time!", trying to prove...what, exactly? It doesn't mean that the counter-example has never been late, and it certainly doesn't mean that I'm always late. It does happen, but I turn in plenty of work way faster than you can get anyone around here to do, or so I'm told.

I'm willing to bet cash that everyone who does a serious amount of building or fixing occasionally misses a deadline. I'm sure there are guys who are always late, and that might be cause for a good, old-fashioned internet pile-on, if you could get enough angry dudes together in one thread. I do find it a bit silly to try to cast aspersions on anyone's whole career based on one job.



Rob

[Santiago]

All's well that ends well.

[Spruce]

I do find it a bit silly to try to cast aspersions on anyone's whole career based on one job.

A huge +1...

If I was a builder and reading this thread (and quite a few are, judging by my email exchanges), I would think twice about taking any sort of work whatsoever from the OP...

Creating a thread entitled "Dealing with Difficult Builder" on the most visible mandolin-related site on the 'net--even if said builder isn't mentioned by name in the OP--is "going nuclear" IMHO...

Potentially much more harmful to one's quality of life than a lawsuit...

All's well that ends well.

Glad that everything supposedly worked out well on this thread...

But folks in the future might want to think twice before punching the "New Thread" button with carps like this, as they tend to come off as being totally CS...

YMMV...

[Scott Tichenor]

Be my preference to stay out of this one but this thread has been at risk for some time. Bruce, we agree on about everything on this one. Might be a good time for members to read our forum posting guidelines. Failure to abide by them because you haven't read them is no excuse. We have policies against using the forum as a weapon to threaten others:

- Using the forum to malign or leverage personal advantage in a conflict is strictly forbidden. Though intent or motivation are not always provable, the moderators reserve full right in deeming whether or not comments made are consistent with policy, and may take action to edit, delete, or when necessary, revoke posting privileges.

That said, it proceeded in an unusual manner and was allowed to remain open. Now I'm beginning to think its served its purpose. Wishing to not take sides, I consider the forum being used in this manner sort of like being forced to watch the Kardashians reality television show. Yes, I know people act this way in private, but that doesn't mean it should be played out in public or that I want to watch it.

My tolerance for this one is growing short so I'd strongly advise opinions about what is and is not allowed on this forum be kept to yourself.

[Rick Crenshaw]

I've been staying out of this one, too. My experience is that I've had two custom instruments made and was told from the outset that the ready date was an approximation and that the quality and acceptability of the mandolin took preference. It was a positive experience for me in both cases and I have my ideal mandolin as a result.

Regarding this situation: In the end it seems that both buyer and builder are stand up guys who had a miscommunication. The fact that it made it to this forum could be seen as unfortunate so let's take the time to make this a little bit more right.

#1. This builder sounds like someone I would do business with as he demonstrates someone with integrity. That is not something to be taken lightly these days.
#2. This buyer is someone who is willing to take a chance and put his money where his mouth is. Where else is an artist/craftsman going to find support for making creative new instruments except for customers who demonstrate a willingness to take a chance.

We could all learn to communicate more openly and we have to be understanding that all work is not comparable in that somethings just take more time than others. Buying and building custom instruments is a risky business.. but one that often pays off quite well. Wish you had jumped on that Dudenbostel, Nugget, or Gilchrist bandwagon early on? I know some who did. They passed up the known (Gibsons) and ventured forth and placed trust in someone who 'looked' like they knew what they were doing. Let's not forget that some of the custom builders today are making the best mandolins right now... and some of them haven't been doing it for decades... and they're not getting rich. Keep that in mind when you come down with both feet on a builder.

[greg_tsam]

...poor planning on their part constitutes an emergency on my part.

I always heard "Your emergency is not my problem." Stings just a bit but it's usually true.

...I've been ...hoping that the thread would slide on down into the archives of "finished" threads, and I had long since resolved to not post here and add to it's life... ...I've learned a potentially valuable lesson here.

I can see you at your keyboard, finger hovering over the mouse saying "Must...Not...Click...Reply...DoH!" Let that be a lesson to you , Sir. I think this thread realistically ended once the two parties made up.

Be my preference to stay out of this one but this thread has been at risk for some time.

That said, it proceeded in an unusual manner and was allowed to remain open. Now I'm beginning to think its served its purpose.

This. I agree. Kudos for being open minded and relaxed enough to let it continue as long as it was productive and useful even it it did skirt the guidelines.

[re simmers]

Great info for customers on builders' perspective, and good info for builders on customers' perspective. It took about 100 responses for all of us to get it:

Instrument builders are an enigma.....and so are musicians! I'm convinced that no other business or customer can be compared.

Bob

[Jack Roberts]

Im not a musical instrument builder, but I build scientific instruments. I was supposed to finish a repair today, but yesterday i realized I don't have a key part that I didn't expect to require for this job. (I have one, but it is the wrong size.) I fully expect an unhappy customer when I call him tomorrow, as I am holding up a research project and somebody has a lot of money at stake here.

I will apologize and explain what I am doing to fix the problem, and hope I don't lose the customer. But things happen. This was fully unexpected.