Was it bad form or well played

[reeljack]

Recently had an offer for a mandolin place in the classifieds. The Offerer shall remain nameless. The offer was, his mandolin+cash for mine. The terms were...we exchange tracking and shipping information after the instruments were shipped out on the same day. I took this as; sending my mandolin out to an unknown person with nothing but an electronic tracking number as payment...no guarantee what's been shipped.
I told the offerer that my mandolin would not ship until the other instrument+check were in my possession and the check had cleared. Was I wrong in doing this? The offerer was HACKED OFF because of this. I'm new to this website...but this doesn't seem normal to me.

[allenhopkins]

So: he's to trust you, when you don't trust him? Sounds a tad asymmetrical, IMHO.

[reeljack]

what is the best way to go about this. just not accept trades and use paypal for the payments?

[pjlama]

Bad form. If you are unsure get more info. I've done many trade transactions here and if somebody is new to me I ask to speak to them on the phone and ask more questions. Find out who the person is; who they are here, who they've done trades with in the past, where they work, live, etc.. Don't expect somebody to send you an instrument and money without some reciprocation on your part. It's fun to trade and I've done it at least 20 some odd times. I occasionally get somebody who doesn't know what's up so I just move on. Frankly somebody with four posts and a new user like yourself would be a bit of a red flag for most of us so I'd be more concerned vetting you than the guys that are like family on this board.

[reeljack]

I gave my number and was ignored. At any rate, the listing has been changed to paypal only. I may try ebay or something else with clear rules and protection for both sides. Thanks for the heads up tho...didn't know that's the way things were done.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd have to know you pretty well before I'd ship something without something in my hand. Beyond that I'll say don't do anything you're not comfortable doing. If you're not comfortable with that arrangement don't go for the trade. As for those that are asking about trust, is it any different than sending off a US Postal Money Order and the seller waiting to get it before he ships? The answer is no, it's not.

Both parties have to agree to terms. If they don't, and that's what happened here, the deal doesn't fly. I want to stress that it's not automatically done as you're being told it's being done.

[reeljack]

Thanks to you.

[lukmanohnz]

I have never done trades - only sales, but I have sold many instruments and my terms are always clear and stated up front: I ship only after payment is received and cleared. In this case, yours was the more valuable instrument in the transaction, and the buyer was an unknown entity to you. There's always some trepidation entering into a long distance transaction without the security of an eBay-like mediator. I don't begrudge you requesting more assurances before shipping your instrument, but I also don't know what the solution is short of an intermediate and symmetrically trusted third party to take receipt of both instruments (plus any cash to balance the deal) and forward the merchandise only after both offerings have been received and verified. Maybe there's a business in that idea?

[MikeEdgerton]

It's being done all over the world, it's called an escrow company and they are one of the bigger sources of rip offs on eBay. Steer clear.

[reeljack]

There goes that idea.

[fowlintent]

If you listed your instrument, I think you were perfectly within your rights to require the other party to ship first, and let you decide if you want to complete the trade. I just traded a high end guitar with a guy 800 miles away. I asked him to place $ x.xx in my paypal account (Approx. 75% of value of guitar) on the condition that I would hold the money, and ship my guitar for him to inspect. After he received and accepted the guitar, he shipped his guitar to me. After I received his guitar, and accepted it, I released the security deposit back to him, everybody was happy. Of course all of this was spelled out in an e-mail before hand, and this served as our "contract". The key is to talk to him by phone, run a google check using his name and phone number. Once you establish the other guy is likely legit, it is easier to build a little trust.

[reeljack]

That's a really good idea...I've changed the post to *No Trades*, Maybe I'll change it back and spell this out in the details. I don't want to miss out on a good trade. There just doesn't seem to be a full proof way of doing it.

[reeljack]

So...the ones that have posted comments are the ones that can be trusted.

[Jim Ferguson]

Not necessarily RJ!!!!! There have been misunderstandings and accusations even among members here on the cafe or on most any forum I would venture to bet. Bottom line, in my estimation, is that any transaction needs to benefit and protect both parties fairly. Always be vigilant in how you approach any sales/trades and demand fairness and offer the same.
Peace,

[barrangatan]

My initial reaction is similar to Allen, and felt that the arrangement you were requesting requires that the other person to trust you 100%, and you are not required to reciprocate such trust. But then I think about what it would entail when it comes to just buying the mandolin: buyer sends money up front, and wait for the mandolin to ship. Once I looked at it that way, your position doesn't seem that unreasonable any more.

As many had said, don't do anything that you're not comfortable, but keep in mind also that in any sort of transaction here and elsewhere, a bit of mutual trust is required. I have not done any trades here involving instruments of any significant value, precisely because of the inherent difficulties involved. As a rule, I never ask anyone to do anything in a transaction that I don't personally feel comfortable doing, and sending an instrument along with a check to someone I don't know, and hope that they will send me back something that I may or may not like, is one of those things. But I really like the arrangement that fowlintent mentioned above, and if I ever do a trade, that's the way I'd do it.

In any case, I don't think you're in the wrong and I wish you good luck in your trades / sale.

[sgarrity]

I've bought and sold A LOT of mandolins and guitars. And traded a fair amount of those. If my instrument is for sale and you offer me another instrument and cash as payment, I'm going to require all payment is in my hand before I ship. The only exceptions I've made to that rule is for people I know and trust.

Those that are against this, explain to me how this is any different than sending a cashier's check for payment in full?

[pjlama]

Every situation is different but with trades it's a bit of a leap simply because they should be shipped at the same time. When there's money with the trade it's more complex but still shipping an instrument for an instrument requires some amount of confidence.

Hey Shaun, you can ship me your Kimble, the check's in the mail

[Pipeous]

Reputation and feedback has to play a big part of any trade decision. I've been bitten for $1000 before in an online trade. on RC Universe, if the person had way less ratings than myself, and no way to show an alternate form of feedback (other forums or ebay etc) then they shipped first.

I had a guy ship me a 5th scale buggy after he smacked a curb and busted a lot of stuff, bent chassis. I guess he didn't read in my add about the waiting part, or in the emails I sent. figured he had a sucker and read what he wanted. Then expected me to pay to ship it back when I opened the box. I sent him what it was worth but not all. Trades are tricky with unknown individuals. Do the research first is all

[djweiss]

I've traded many mandolins based on MandolinCafe ads, both placing them and responding to others. All the transactions involved phone calls and emails and a general sense of whom I was dealing with...while not all the risk was averted, I *felt* comfortable, as well as apparently making the other parties feel comfortable as many of them have sent me mandolins to try with the understanding that I would send a mandolin/cash back if satisfied...In fact a noted builder shipped a mandolin to me today (Monday) with the expectation that within 48 hours I'm going to either send it back or trade my current mandolin + cash.

[Mike Scott]

I have done this a couple of times. I have been lucky as they have gone very smoothly. I always check the number of ads and responses from the other party in the classifieds as well as whether or not they are a regular poster in the forums. I also exchange a lot of emails back and forth just to try to get a feel for the other person. So far so good. No guarantees though. I would say do whatever you think is right. Best of luck for future transactions.

[reeljack]

Thanks a lot to everyone that's responded to this. Everything has a learning curve. <Removed by Moderator, the Posting Guidelines prohibit cross advertising on the message boards>

[belbein]

I only saw this today, but I want to add my two cents. I think those of you who talk about "trust" and "bad form" are just dead wrong. At least from a legal perspective. (What follows is not legal advice.)

Here's a lawyer's way of looking at this. Seller lists a Widget for sale or trade. Buyer makes an offer of cash plus goods, which is essentially NOT an acceptance of the original offer by Seller because it varies the terms Seller listed (cash + goods is neither sale nor trade). Seller then accepts the terms of Buyer's counter-offer, but he offers his own counter-offer: pay me first. Buyer can accept or reject, and if he accepts there are new contract terms. If he rejects, then everyone goes on their way, no contract having been agreed to.

So, a couple of points. First, Seller RJ is perfectly within his legal rights to make the offer, counter-offer, and the demand to be paid first. (As Buyer is within his rights to do what he did--until he got morally offended, which just strikes me as odd.*)They are legally acceptable terms, and they're not "unconscionable."

Second, this is a business transaction, not a trade among friends of baseball cards or something. There's nothing about what Seller did that is not commercially acceptable. In fact, I would say that any lawyer with any brains would advise any client to do exactly what Seller did. In fact in fact, many businesses--and nearly all "mail order" businesses--demand money up front before they ship. (I just ordered a kit from a very well respected and universally trusted luthier--and he asked for money up front.)

Third: all this "bad form" and "not nice" stuff perplexes me. This is business, people. We're not talking articles of no value. We're also not talking face-to-face transactions where either party can judge the other's apparent reliability ... or easily track the other one down if there's something wrong with the articles exchanged.

My grandfather had a saying: Friends is friends but business is business. Good form, bad form, nice, not nice--not relevant in my opinion. What's relevant in a business transaction is making sure that you get "the benefit of the bargain," which is to say, what you negotiated for. Call this paranoid, call it lawyerly, call it un-neighborly or hell, Un-Christian ... I'll just say that the law on this subject has been developed for 1000s of years for long distance trading--and it wasn't because lawyers were butting in. It was because the environment of trade is fraught with risk, and one way of dealing with risk is to do what Reeljack did.

__
* (OK, look: I'm a lawyer. There have to be footnotes.) I have never, ever heard anyone in a business context say, "You'll have to trust me" when he/she wasn't trying to screw the other guy. Not once in 30+ years of practicing law.

[Tim2723]

While I can't contribute anything helpful to the dilemma at hand, I'd like to point out that reeljack did something important: He used the resources here at the Cafe. There is more experience and knowledge here than you can shake a stick at.

[acousticphd]

I'd like to point out that reeljack did something important: He used the resources here at the Cafe.

That is a good point.

My input (late as it is) would have been that since you had placed the sale ad for your instrument, it was not bad form.
But my experience has been that the best possible form is that both parties exchange a number of emails and probably phone calls to develop a sense of comfort and trust. Ie, "hey, this guy is pretty much like me, wanting to make a deal where we're both secure and happy with it." I have found that when this sort of communication happens, I start to feel a lot better about someone else having my money, or for that matter, taking someone else's check or money order without fear of getting burned.

There are a number of good reasons why the cafe would refrain from play a direct part in mediating or brokering deals.
It occurs to me though, that details of deals completed between parties in the cafe classifieds could be made public. Simply a posting of completed transactions, with names, could be useful. Eg "Completion of classified ad 12345: F-style handmade mandolin. Sold by John Doe (member) to James Dear (non-member) on 5/22/12, for $2500 (or traded for mandolin + $1000).

[reeljack]

Thats a good point. I've been trying to find something that would tell me something about different guys on the lists...how many deals they've done. Maybe this guy really did have a lot of transactions completed with people that were happy, I don't know. I've not been able to find anything. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Just random people that have instruments for sale or trade. I've changed my listing so many times it's probably going to be overlooked now.