A Bit of a Vent...

[slantt]

I've just returned from a W/E bluegrass festival in which a Beginner's Mandolin Workshop was featured "for the absolute newcomer to the mandolin" - no experience on the instrument needed. So a crowd of youngsters with their new mandos and some older wanna-bes like me sit in and the first thing the workshop leader trots out is the four-finger 'G' chop chord! And the youngster's eyes glaze over!! I've seen this happen more than a few times at beginner's workshops. I don't have anything against that particular chord form but why, oh, why start there? If a 'G' chop is gonna be taught why not the one demoed by Roland White at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO-4FIRjgXw ? The four-fingered figure could be show as something to work toward. Skills like simpler chord forms, rhythmic playing, playing on the off-beat might be better material for a beginner's class. Any thoughts on this from out there?

Jim

[Schlegel]

One lesson I saw skipped G and went straight for the A chop- same shape 2 frets up the neck and achievable right away by a much greater percentage of people due to the lesser stretch. No, it's not in as many songs, but you can at least maybe do it immediately.

[Buck]

Guess I'm just lucky, but the four finger "Bluegrass G" is the most natural thing in the world. Always has been. Out of ignorance, I would probably start a beginner with that too. Unfortunately, my natural ability ends right there. Everything else I have to work for.

[MikeEdgerton]

Well I guess there are right ways and wrong ways to start but I'm fond of two and thee finger chords for raw beginning adults. I haven't had the pleasure of teaching children.

[cobraman428]

All teachers have different styles but I would say its more about develping the pinky finger at a early stage of playing. Thats a Huge hurdle to get over if you put it off. One should develop it early right from the start !!

[allenhopkins]

To many a bluegrass player, the four-finger G "chop" is like a foundational element, one that you need to know the first day you show up at a jam. Don't necessarily agree, but I can see where the instructor was coming from.

My concept of the mandolin is "melody first," then learn the chords to support the melody, then learn the rhythm styles that fit melody and chords into an ensemble context. A kid taking his mandolin home from the festival and just practicing "chop" chords by himself, is soon going to move on to the saxophone -- or, worse yet, become a drummah.

On the other hand, maybe he/she will get more gigs; they're always looking for drummahs...

[mandocrucian]

I've just returned from a W/E bluegrass festival in which a Beginner's Mandolin Workshop was featured "for the absolute newcomer to the mandolin" - no experience on the instrument needed. So a crowd of youngsters with their new mandos and some older wanna-bes like me sit in and the first thing the workshop leader trots out is the four-finger 'G' chop chord!

What's an "absolute newcomer" anyway?......someone who's banged around on guitar or banjo before buying a mandolin? Or someone without any previous instrumental experience? Either case....the scenario above would be 'funny' if it wasn't so typical and pathetic/incompetant. But most festival "workshops" are only presented just to be listed/used on the festival advertising.

Might as opt for the pure comedy value and find a Moe Howard (or Larry Fine) imitator to teach the "workshop". (better yet, get both Moe and Larry)


and Curly can :"teach" the bass players or the dulcimer ladies on the second stage! nyuk nyuk nyuk.

[Jimdalf]

I completely agree. On the odd occasions that I beg my girlfriend to play mandolin with me, it has to be two of three finger chords (maximum) because expecting a newcomer to keep up even with a slow rhythm with anything more is just asking too much.

I guess we don't appreciate that the basics are still things that we work towards? not the building blocks that we immediately start with.

[billkilpatrick]

... I'm fond of ... thee finger chords ...

me too ... but it invites censure.

first song i ever learned was "little brown jug," using one finger chords on a ukulele - i think that's the way to start: builds confidence, it's enjoyable and you walk away from your first "lesson" (such as it was) knowing you can make music. depends on the music one plays but three finger chords - with occasional drone - work well enough for me

[Paul Busman]

Agreed-- beginner workshops often aren't.
Ditto for sessions. "Slow" beginner sessions often get infiltrated by better players who jack up the tempo to where the newbies can't participate.

[jmagill]

Agreed-- beginner workshops often aren't.

Festival workshops in general aren't either.

A one hour (or so) session for a crowd of people, led by a few performers who usually play (not teach) for a living, doesn't really allow the kind of pace and interaction necessary for folks to learn much. Not the performers fault, really; just the nature of the structure. Before I gave my first one at Winfield many years ago, I was told by another workshop vet that it was "just another kind of performance, but with more talking."

To really learn an instrument, regular instruction tailored to the student's level and needs is the way to go – from a local instructor, the occasional music camp, or, for those so inclined, a disciplined self-teaching regimen, using books, DVDs online resources, etc.

[Stephen Perry]

The best lesson I ever had was 40 minutes on how to play a note -- one note -- on a piano. All the different things that go into it. Variations. Posture. Thinking. Revolutionized music performance for me.

I would think a first lesson would be posture and how to effectively play one note down and one note up.

[journeybear]

I'm fine with the instructor including the G chop chord - in fact, I think the workshop would have been incomplete without it - but I disagree with his pacing. He should have started with simpler stuff and built toward that, probably ending with it. It is so commonly used, especially in bluegrass, and a fine chord in its own right, attendees should definitely have it in their arsenal. But starting with it is indeed going to present a challenge to "absolute newcomers," and as the OP said, make their eyes glaze over - which is counter-productive. Plus that pinky stretch is not easy for someone who hasn't had some experience. Start with 0023 and other easy chords, build the beginners' confidence, then come back to this at the end. He would also have been able to teach something about the theory behind chord inversions this way.

I learned mandolin on my own, receiving my first instrument as a gift from my mother rather randomly, and as I was steeped in rock and pop and psychedelia (1968 New England) I did not encounter bluegrass nor this chord until I went to college and met my first other mandolinist, 3-4 years into my journey. He seemed incredulous that I didn't know it (mandolinists are such snobs! ), but I did recognize it as the 5301 F chord from my Mel Bay book, moved up two frets.

[Nick Triesch]

In some mountain areas of America, folks play washtub bass, washboards and spoons along with their bluegrass. I think two finger chords are just fine. Nick

[terzinator]

the best lesson i ever had was 40 minutes on how to play a note -- one note -- on a piano. All the different things that go into it. Variations. Posture. Thinking. Revolutionized music performance for me.

I would think a first lesson would be posture and how to effectively play one note down and one note up.

this.

[journeybear]

BTW & FWIW & JICAC & SWA - Larry Fine was actually an accomplished classical violinist and actualy played during bits that included him on violin - not that it matters here, just sayin' ... As you were ..

[SincereCorgi]

The best lesson I ever had was 40 minutes on how to play a note -- one note -- on a piano. All the different things that go into it. Variations. Posture. Thinking. Revolutionized music performance for me.

I would think a first lesson would be posture and how to effectively play one note down and one note up.

While this sounds good in theory, I don't think it's a very practical way to teach or learn for most people. Most beginners can't handle that level of detail, after more than twenty minutes it would get exhausting and demoralizing. For example, I don't think anybody can pick up a violin for the first time and be playing gorgeous wobble-less notes after a forty minute lecture; it's something you have to gradually focus in on over the course of several months. But, hey, your mileage may vary.

[catmandu2]

exhausting and demoralizing

Ha, yes, advanced conceptual lessons, inner games, and the finer aspects of sound and musicianship are probably more than most neophytes can digest. I think any or all of us coming up through school-based music instruction can relate--this is the stuff of epic traumas and lifelong scars...when subjected to at an early age

[Charlieshafer]

Yeah, have to agree that starting with four-fingered chords is a bit much. It's real easy to fill an hour with 2 or 3 fingered chords in the keys of D and G, get them playing on the beat and off the beat, then add those two scales in for single-note work. Easy stuff, and so many songs are based on that they can just work on those for weeks to come and feel like they really learned something. Spend the last ten minutes teaching something like "Angeline the Baker" and you've hit a home run as a workshop leader.

[jim simpson]

I think a workshop's purpose would be to introduce fundamentals that each attendee would take away for self learning or study with a teacher. I always think back to my old teacher who pretty much let me set goals and allowed me to direct what I wanted out of the lessons. I've tried to do the same with past students. I personally like all the variant fingered chords as they all have a place for various effect.
I remember the difficulty of learning to switch between G to D, both the 4 fingered patterns. Once you get your chords down cold, then your timing doesn't suffer from the changes. If you have to hesitate or think how the chord is formed, then you've already slowed down. I think attending a jam or playing with a partner is one of the best ways to get the chord changes up to speed.
It's hard to comment on this particular workshop but if I were conducting one, I would want to include enough info, handouts, etc. to make it worthwhile for those in attendance.

[Skunkwood]

a crowd of youngsters with their new mandos

Young people have smaller hands and fingers, that's why trotting out the G chop is worth the OP's rant. The instructor lacked empathy and perspective, two attributes that teachers should be full of if they want the title.

[MikeEdgerton]

me too ... but it invites censure.

first song i ever learned was "little brown jug," using one finger chords on a ukulele - i think that's the way to start: builds confidence, it's enjoyable and you walk away from your first "lesson" (such as it was) knowing you can make music. depends on the music one plays but three finger chords - with occasional drone - work well enough for me

I revel in censure. I thrive on censure. I live for censure. In other words, that really doesn't cause me any problems. When I watch a young man I know play the mandolin upside down and he's kicking my backside I really can't worry about censure. It's what a player is producing that impresses me, not how they are getting there.

[mandodan1960]

Festival workshops in general aren't either.

A one hour (or so) session for a crowd of people, led by a few performers who usually play (not teach) for a living, doesn't really allow the kind of pace and interaction necessary for folks to learn much. Not the performers fault, really; just the nature of the structure. Before I gave my first one at Winfield many years ago, I was told by another workshop vet that it was "just another kind of performance, but with more talking."

To really learn an instrument, regular instruction tailored to the student's level and needs is the way to go – from a local instructor, the occasional music camp, or, for those so inclined, a disciplined self-teaching regimen, using books, DVDs online resources, etc.

I wish I could find a local instructor who was really interested in being a teacher first. I've had a teacher spend 15 min of a 30 min lesson writing out tab (every time) It was impressive but I already had plenty of tab. Another one thought crosspicking was appropriate for the "third" lesson. I don't even like crosspicking. Another was in a music store booth with very bright lights he didn't like so we sat in the near dark. He showed me sweep picking that is done on guitar in the second lesson. I would love to find a competent serious instructor who first wants to teach and second wants to make some quick money. I'm sure these stories are very common and I really don't know why. It would seem like a fun a profitable side gig for a guy/gal to teach 1 or 2 nights a week for some extra money.

[Mandoviol]

I started out with just the two-finger and three-finger chords when I began learning (head-nod to Dix Bruce); melodies were more my thing, because I knew the violin pretty well. I never really touched the four-finger G chop until very recently, mainly for playing bluegrass in a group with others. And I'll be darned if I don't like it. Kind of have to thank Niles for his pocket chord book, because as chord-theory illiterate as I am, I probably wouldn't have made the jump to realizing that shifting G up two frets made an A chop chord. So thank you sir!

[belbein]

I did my first class in Mandolin at the Common Ground on the Hill Festival in Maryland last July. There are two people who teach the course. One is a local young guy who's fabulous both as player and teacher. The other was my teacher. He's an older guy (my age) who's a well respected professional. A very nice guy, too, I might add, and a great player. But in my "absolute novice class," the first thing he started out with was a jazz piece in standard notation. When it was obvious that we didn't get it, he tried teaching us by ear, which might have worked if he hadn't spent about 60 seconds on each measure and then moved on to the next measure. Within five minutes we had 7 or more measures to have "memorized" on a piece we had never heard before. I finally lead a revolution and told him that he was way over our heads. That talked him down a little.

Then this really cute young violinist joined our group. Since she was really cute and classically trained, she knew all the notes up and down the fretboard (without frets!), and he started teaching to her. She was the only one in the class. The rest of us were just chorus.

Nearly everyone in the class (except, I guess, the one cute girl) filled out evaluations that said