Siminoff A5 tuning machines

**sgarrity** · May-20-2012, 12:17am

Anybody have any experience with these? And are there any other worm-under machines out there for an A5? Thanks!!

**OldGus** · May-20-2012, 4:52pm

Since most of your stuff is high end you might want to consider a custom Alessi set. The best tuners I've experience were a pair of arrow tuners on a snakehead. Maybe you could find a good vintage set like that, you want to make sure the spacing and hole size is the same so you don't have to drill more or redrill holes in it but you probably already know that.

**amowry** · May-20-2012, 10:05pm

Siminoff's tuners are Gotohs, which I find to be about the best available short of stepping up to Alessis or Waverlys.

**Mike Black** · May-20-2012, 10:47pm

Shaun,

As Andrew said, these are Gotohs, but they are worm-over tuners. The only available worm-under, standard spacing, A style tuners that I'm aware of are the Gotohs sold by LMI. They are what I use on all my mandos now, except for a couple of pair of Alessi tuners that I've gotten.

**Paul Hostetter** · May-20-2012, 10:48pm

Gotohs (the line Siminoff offers) are indeed quite good but Gotoh seems to be going through some changes and some folks are having trouble. In the Unamerican department, Rubners are really nice. Alessis are supposed to be great, but I never have managed to connect with the guy. Stew-Mac has other worm-under machines than their Waverlys that are really superb, and a whole lot cheaper.

**grandcanyonminstrel** · May-21-2012, 12:37pm

The worm over/under problems can be solved by using Schaller machines. They come in two versions- left and right cut gears. I always seem to get it wrong, so I order one set of each when in need and then return the one that did not work for my use. The bonus when using Schallers is that you can disassemble the entire machine, flip the plates around, and reassemble. That one aspect of their design allows them to be fit any configuration. I believe LMI sells both models.

A HUGE personal pet peeve of of mine is when I see folks re-drilling old A mandolin headstocks just because they didn't buy the right set of machines. Probably half of the '20s A models I see have had this done to them. 'Might as well drill out the bottom end and install a floyd rose....

j.
www.condino.com

**Paul Hostetter** · May-21-2012, 1:53pm

I just wish Schallers weren't so bloody ugly. Chrome and faux pearl buttons, unsightly plates, so inappropriate that they look like mag wheels on a Model T. Unless the mandolin in question is modern itself, but most people are talking about upgrades on old Gibsons and so on.

But there are other options, fortunately.

**terzinator** · May-21-2012, 2:04pm

Is there an advantage to using Worm-Under tuners? Is it just for looks? I thought you wanted to avoid Worm-Under when you could because the string tension pulls the gear away from the worm. (Yeah, F-style, well, you have history and tradition and that big headstock to deal with, so you're kinda stuck with Worm-Under.)

I replaced the Gotohs with Grover 309s last year on my Collings MT, and I love them. But yeah, they're Worm-Over, and I'm guessing they don't make Worm-Under.

I think current Waverly A-style tuners are also only Worm-Over. (I might be wrong, but I've not seen them in a Worm-Under configuration.)

**Paul Hostetter** · May-21-2012, 2:50pm

Originally Posted by terzinator

Is there an advantage to using Worm-Under tuners? Is it just for looks?

Mainly, yes. There's a slight mechanical advantage to worm-over, hence the change. But there are zillions of vintage istruments, some of which need replacements. And the aesthetic certainly lingers.

I thought you wanted to avoid Worm-Under when you could because the string tension pulls the gear away from the worm. (Yeah, F-style, well, you have history and tradition and that big headstock to deal with, so you're kinda stuck with Worm-Under.)

Not really—lots of later Gibson F's had worm-over machines, it's just about how you lay out the headstock.

I replaced the Gotohs with Grover 309s last year on my Collings MT, and I love them. But yeah, they're Worm-Over, and I'm guessing they don't make Worm-Under.

Gotohs are made both ways, for A and F and A-5 too. See here.

I think current Waverly A-style tuners are also only Worm-Over. (I might be wrong, but I've not seen them in a Worm-Under configuration.)

For a price, they'll do nearly anything. Including these for A mandolins:

These are really nice vintage "reverse" machines:

They only catalog these in modern style for A, but they make the same machines in reverse for F. Go figure.

**Mike Black** · May-21-2012, 3:19pm

I've asked stew mac if I could get a set of Waverly F-stlye tuners with all the same length shafts (just assemble using the same bin), but got a response that sounded as if I insulted them for the suggestion and that they will not do custom orders.

**Paul Hostetter** · May-21-2012, 4:02pm

Hmm, I've seen them. Peter Combe uses them, among others. I do know that right now the Waverly shop is overwhelmed with guitar tuner orders and is therefore not asking for complications. You know just by looking they'd be easy to do though.

**Mike Black** · May-21-2012, 4:11pm

Originally Posted by Paul Hostetter

Hmm, I've seen them. Peter Combe uses them, among others. I do know that right now the Waverly shop is overwhelmed with guitar tuner orders and is therefore not asking for complications. You know just by looking they'd be easy to do though.

That's right Paul, You'd think it would be super easy.

**peter.coombe** · May-21-2012, 6:30pm

Hmm, I've seen them. Peter Combe uses them, among others. I do know that right now the Waverly shop is overwhelmed with guitar tuner orders and is therefore not asking for complications. You know just by looking they'd be easy to do though.

Do I??

I have only ever used one set of Waverlys. They were in gold and Ebony, A type tuners, i.e. equal length shafts. Very very nice, and any customer can have a set as an option if they pay up front and wait for Stew Mac's lead time. However, most are happy with the Schaller A's with the wooden knobs I make, or maybe they don't want to pay the extra so there has been virtually no requests for Waverlys. Stew Mac have the A type Waverlys on their web site, but are currently out of stock.

Paul, I agree that Schallers are inappropriate for vintage instruments, and I detest those horrible plastic knobs. Agreed that they are easy to disassemble and reassemble, I have done that a number of times to fix some QC problems.

**Paul Hostetter** · May-21-2012, 8:24pm

Originally Posted by peter.coombe

Do I??

I have only ever used one set of Waverlys. They were in gold and Ebony, A type tuners, i.e. equal length shafts.

Well, they are on your options page as we speak: http://www.petercoombe.com/Options.htm

I think it's a matter of time, if people speak up loudly enough, before Stew-Mac makes these for A style as well:

**grandcanyonminstrel** · May-21-2012, 9:12pm

Originally Posted by Paul Hostetter

I just wish Schallers weren't so bloody ugly.

Agreed. I forgot to specify Schaller F style are the only type I buy; they are a lot more streamlined compared to the A. I'll cut down the f style button shaft length and add ebony buttons.

**sgarrity** · May-22-2012, 12:16am

This is for an A5 that is a pretty close copy of THE A5.......except for the tuners. A snakehead just begs for worm under tuners IMHO.

**Paul Hostetter** · May-22-2012, 1:27am

Originally Posted by sgarrity

This is for an A5 that is a pretty close copy of THE A5.......except for the tuners. A snakehead just begs for worm under tuners IMHO.

I agree. I think your only realistic options are reverse Gotohs or the Stew-Mac Golden Age items.

**sprucetop1** · May-22-2012, 1:44am

I'm trying to build a replica H1 mandola (without access to an original instrument). Did Gibson fit the same string-space machine heads to their H1/2 mandolas as they did to their mandolins.....or were larger machines used ?...thanks....John

**Paul Hostetter** · May-22-2012, 1:53am

Same ones.

**sprucetop1** · May-22-2012, 4:54am

Paul.....thanks for information....John

**terzinator** · May-22-2012, 9:49am

ok, now, I've seen this pic before, but what the heck is the deal? Photoshopped? Actual experiment? (Forgive my ignorance!)

EDIT: Nevermind. Found the explanation on the Lutherie site (photoshopped), along with this image...

**mandopixie** · Jun-01-2012, 11:47pm

Originally Posted by Paul Hostetter

I think it's a matter of time, if people speak up loudly enough, before Stew-Mac makes these for A style as well.

Of course we should speak up loudly 'enough' (because no-one has done that yet). Yes. We should turn up the volume. Then maybe, just maybe the tuner-making gods will supply what we ask. Assuming, for some unknown reason that we should wait, I ask, For how long do we have to wait, Paul? For how long????